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Mad Ani

UK leaves EU and Prime Minister resigns

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I think the message is clear no country should give up its sovereignty to some unelected commision...or give up its identity, freedom what have you in exchange for unfair or exceptional access to markets.  The EU from what I have read does not act or look anything like a United States its not democratic it looks more like fascism masquerading as social democracy...and even social democracy seems to have anything but democracy until you vote to leave. 

Edited by XRobinson
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If I want to go to McDonald's, it's unlikely 100 great reasons will deter me when I have the money and the ride.  If the EU is so great, the UK will be back.  From the US perspective, I hope it doesn't destabilize NATO, and I want to ride the Chunnel one day. :)

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The problem I think is the US became a nation that was madeup of people from England, France, Spain, Ireland, Germany and on and on...and those people gave up to a degree their homeland values for new values called freedom and democracy for all...the new identity became the United States not their home countries identity, however there still remains in the US people who are still transitioning or changing identity to American...the ones that dont and raise their countries flag in America are not becoming Americans...this is a current problem....The EU is not a nation like US is....how will the young be converted to call themselves EU and not British, German Irish ect...without being called a nation and a country like the US is?

Edited by XRobinson

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@XRobinson If you take a look at the actual political realities in Europe you will find that there is not a single country that is pushing for a "United States of Europe". This argument against the EU is probably older than the Union itself but it is not going to happen because the National Governments (and rightly so) have a very close eye on which responsibilities they allow to be shifted to the Union. Nobody is asking people to abandon their national identities and become "European". In fact, the EU is promoting the cultural identities and diversity of its member states. Furthermore, it is just a reality that young Europeans feel quite close to their peers in neighboring countries and there is nothing wrong with that. It does not destroy your culture. If anything, it makes you more aware of your own (Try meeting with Italians and find out you are always the only one who is on time ;) ) I have friends from all over the Union and we like and mock each other probably just like you do in the US with your peers from different US-states.

 

And please read up on how the EU works before talking about "fascism masquerading as social democracy" or giving up one's "identitiy", this is a ridiculous argument. The (democratically elected) European Parliament had to confirm the President of the commission (Juncker). He underwent a confirmation hearing in the European Parliament; the European Parliament then elected the Juncker Commission – with 423 votes in favour, 209 against and 67 abstentions. You can find one example here:

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-14-1192_en.htm - Election of the Commision of Juncker

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/hearings-2014/en/schedule/07-10-2014/jonathan-hill - Hearing of a Commissioner from the UK

 

I challenge you to name a single minister in the EU (or the US?!) that is directly elected by the public; I'm talking about indirect elections here, of course, as is the norm in a parliamentary democracy. I did watch his confirmation hearing where he was grilled by the European Parliament.

 

Note that neither the British Prime Minister nor the Cabinet of the UK are elected, not even indirectly. The PM is appointed by the Queen; the other ministers are appointed and can be dismissed at the pleasure of the Queen on advice of the PM. Significantly less democratic legitimacy than the European Commission; heck, the current PM's majority in the Commons is not even backed by a majority of voters.

 

I hope I could clarify some of the notions you seem to have. I recommend you stop reading Breitbard to learn about European issues, we also have good (as in: conservative and eurosceptic) publications that are more based around actual facts, no offense.

 

(Please take note: I am not saying the EU system is flawless, I am hoping for reform now, especially to avoid national governments invoking unpopular things via the EU and then go back home and point fingers at the EU, pretending to have nothing to do with it).

 

 

1 hour ago, XRobinson said:

I think the message is clear no country should give up its sovereignty to some unelected commision...or give up its identity, freedom what have you in exchange

for unfair or exceptional access to markets.  The EU from what I have read does not act or look anything like a United States its not democratic it looks more like fascism masquerading as social democracy...and even social democracy seems to have anything but democracy until you vote to leave. 

 

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I was not advocating a United States of Europe, nearly just showing that the EU from my perspective of reading articles for and against the Brexit show to me and my understanding that the EU is not as democratic as the US is because there are (unelected) bureaucrats running the tax and spend show that goes against one members voting bloc; such as an example one countries majority voters say no to certain regulation but they get trumped by the EU ect ect to any issue that has occured in such fashion. Briton curved bananas anyone. Where's the sovereignty in that?

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29 minutes ago, XRobinson said:

Briton curved bananas anyone.

 

There is SOOOO much misinformation that gets bandied around no one really knows the truth until it smacks them in the face. That's the way it seems to me.

 

It was not bananas but cucumbers being curved that was the problem with Europe. You have just show an example of how the whole referendum was based on a lot of misinformation. 

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45 minutes ago, XRobinson said:

riton curved bananas anyone. Where's the sovereignty in that?

It was European farmers and traders who advocated for the bent cucumber rule. Why? Because if cucumbers are not bent, you can fit much more of them into crates for transportation, thus saving cost. It was first brought up in the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe and already adopted by lots of member states, before the EU even dealt with it. At some point (1988) it was put into legislation to have a common framework for all member states.

 

Things like these aren't born in some Bureaucrat's evil mind, they come from the real world (in this case farmers and supermarkets) and there is a reason we have them. Personally, I find it as ridiculous as anyone else to regulate things like this (and it has been abolished again(!)), but because we have the common market, the EU had to find a way for all member states.

 

Google Translate this article from 1992 if you want to know more: http://folio.nzz.ch/1992/oktober/die-gurkennorm-und-ihre-hintermanner

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromyth

 

 

PS: read my other post again, I think you missed the point about the unelected bureaucrats running everything ..

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What I'm actually dissapointed right now,is the "Yellow belly" PM David Cameron resignation  (obvisiously he was so full of himself)he never thought that he might loose,so like a spoilt brat,spat his dummy crying & left the country in the shit.

He is the  PM of the UK,his job is to keep our country stable,instead he has gone A.W.O.L.,,

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2 minutes ago, Xx-RAGING-DEATH-xX said:

What I'm actually dissapointed right now,is the "Yellow belly" PM David Cameron resignation  (obvisiously he was so full of himself)he never thought that he might loose,so like a spoilt brat,spat his dummy crying & left the country in the shit.

He is the  PM of the UK,his job is to keep our country stable,instead he has gone A.W.O.L.,,

 

You do know he was for the remain camp? His desire is not for leaving so wouldn't be the best person for the job of unravelling from the EU anyway. The country climbed into the shit against his preference for it to stay out.

 

If someone else's baby shits itself would you volunteer to change its nappy. I'd pass the baby back as well.

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Just now, Major Trouble said:

 

You do know he was for the remain camp? His desire is not for leaving so wouldn't be the best person for the job of unravelling from the EU anyway. The country climbed into the shit against his preference for it to stay out.

 

If someone else's baby shits itself would you volunteer to change its nappy. I'd pass the baby back as well.

Indeed i did...But he still our PM and his priority should be,keeping the UK strong,stable & open to business as usual, instead of hiding & sulking.

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Well I did a little search cuz Iam no expert on the EU...but just reading the first paragragh here represents a problem to my view right off the bat: The European Commission is the EU's executive body.  It represents the interests of the European Union as a whole (not the interest of individual countries).  In the US states have rights and laws separate from and in cases sovereign from the Federal gov. Where's the individual countries rights and laws within the EU stand?

http://ec.europa.eu/about/index_en.htm

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Xx-RAGING-DEATH-xX said:

Indeed i did...But he still our PM and his priority should be,keeping the UK strong,stable & open to business as usual, instead of hiding & sulking.

 

He'll do that for the next few months until his successor is found. I expect nothing less otherwise I'd be bashing him as well.

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40 minutes ago, XRobinson said:

Well I did a little search cuz Iam no expert on the EU...but just reading the first paragragh here represents a problem to my view right off the bat: The European Commission is the EU's executive body.  It represents the interests of the European Union as a whole (not the interest of individual countries).  In the US states have rights and laws separate from and in cases sovereign from the Federal gov. Where's the individual countries rights and laws within the EU stand?

http://ec.europa.eu/about/index_en.htm

 

The EU cannot just impose whatever it wants on the member states, much less so than the US government can on its member states. All members are sovereign countries, not federal subunits like Texas or Kansas. Every country can leave the EU, invoking Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty. I added Wiki links for further reading:

 

Subsidiarity is a founding principle of the EU. Which means: What can be done on a local or national level should be done there.

But lets look at what the member states are doing. Just imagine each "state" was a US-american state and then see if you still find that the EU states have no say.

Full membership gives the government of a member state a seat in the Council of the European Union and European Council (<-Council of all heads of states). The Presidency of the Council of the European Union rotates between each of the member states, allowing each state six months to help direct the agenda of the EU.  Similarly, each state is assigned seats in Parliament according to their population (with the smaller countries receiving more seats per inhabitant than the larger ones). The members of the European Parliament have been elected by universal suffrage since 1979 (before that, they were seconded from national parliaments). The national governments appoint one member each to the European Commission (in accord with its president and after a hearing by the Parliament) , the European Court of Justice (in accord with other members) and the European Court of Auditors. Historically, larger member states were granted an extra Commissioner. However, as the body grew, this right has been removed and each state is represented equally.

 

The EU only has exclusive competences in the fields of:

(please remember: The EU is made up of its member states, general policy guidelines are almost always unanimously agreed between all members, see European Council))

 

A number of states are less integrated into the EU than others. In most cases this is because those states have gained an opt-out from a certain policy area. The most notable is the opt-out from the Economic and Monetary Union, the adoption of the euro as sole legal currency. Most states outside the Eurozone are obliged to adopt the euro when they are ready, but Denmark and the United Kingdom have obtained the right to retain their own independent currencies. Ireland and the United Kingdom also do not participate in the Schengen Agreement, which eliminates internal EU border checks. Denmark has an opt out from the Common Security and Defence Policy; Denmark, Ireland and the UK have an opt-out on police and justice matters and Poland and the UK have an opt out from the Charter of Fundamental Rights.

 

The EU only has the powers that its members decide to give it.

The UK and other Member States have granted the EU powers to make various kinds of laws that affect them and their citizens, but under certain conditions. The UK has a vote over these laws, and an influence over the end result. There are also a number of rules and principles that set out when and how the EU can act, the objectives it must follow and how agreement on laws and decisions is reached. The UK is represented in, or is able to nominate members to, all of the institutions involved in takink decisions and making EU laws affect the UK.


I recommend you read: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/516501/Rights_and_obligations_of_European_Union_membership_web_version.pdf

 

 

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This is my personal view as an individual I would never join a union where I give up control of immigration to my country to another entity be that a dictator, commision or conqueror.  And perhaps this is the reason for Brexit after all. We do not truly have invisable borders after all even though we do seem to have that in the online world with the internet.  The Earth is not a one world race, society, or union yet and may not be done by force or through war but by individuals who stand for mutual respect and honor. Or?  who knows.

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4 minutes ago, XRobinson said:

This is my personal view as an individual I would never join a union where I give up control of immigration to my country to another entity be that a dictator, commision or conqueror.  And perhaps this is the reason for Brexit after all. We do not truly have invisable borders after all even though we do seem to have that in the online world with the internet.  The Earth is not a one world race, society, or union yet and may not be done by force or through war but by individuals who stand for mutual respect and honor. Or?  who knows.


And yet here we are, Kansas can't control who comes in from Texas. Does it want to?

 

Just last week, the EU passed legislation regarding external border control, there will be an European Border and Coast Guard so that the open borders within the EU/Schengen Area can remain open as they should. http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-2292_en.htm

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Man @Nate, you are doing a fine job providing well written and comprehensible information.
You are doing a better job in terms of the educational mandate, compared to most national governments or responsible entities.

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1 minute ago, beginna said:

Man @Nate, you are doing a fine job providing well written and comprehensible information.
You are doing a better job in terms of the educational mandate, compared to most national governments or responsible entities.

 

@Nate There's a job going in London soon. With your clear, concise knowledge you've got my vote.

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1 hour ago, Major Trouble said:

@Nate You seem clued up. How true are these about the ESM?

This seems great.....

 

This not so much......

 

 

Not sure if you're sarcastic with the 'clued-up' part, and yeah to be honest I am not sure at all about the ESM and the whole Euro crisis thing, and it's been a long time since it was in the news. There is too much uncertainty and complexity with all the Greece drama, so I can't make up my mind on what is good and bad, sorry.

 

In my eyes though, the whole Euro system is fundamentally flawed. Usually if one country has a currency, the exchange rate has the function of compensating for differences in competitiveness between economies. If everyone uses the same currency without having the same economic policies, things can go very wrong. (<- this is massively simplified, but I have not much knowledge on this matter). I think the ESM and ESFS were the attempts to find solutions to the crises that emerged out of this fundamental flaw, but they have received a load of criticism.

 

When the Euro started, instead of letting wages rise according to productivity gains (plus a 1.9% inflation target that all countries should have met), Germany went for wage moderation and others, like Greece went a different way (see graph below). Germany engaged in a policy of pressure on wages, dampening domestic demand and putting everything on export. No country in Europe has been able to follow Germany. Funnily enough, in German policy circles this is seen as proof of the superiority of the German model. When the crisis hit in, other countries were forced to go the German way in "high-speed", with loads of privatisation and what not (look at Greece again), causing (in my eyes) even more problems than it solved.  The UK was very much on board with this course of austerity (but wasn't as involved since it's not a Euro country), and after all - The British Conservatives are the biggest austerians of Europe. France is now trying to reform as well, but they have hit massive resistance from the public.

 

euro-ulcs-ecb-inflation-target1.jpg

 

It seems now (post 2012) people have gotten their shit together a bit more and we are heading towards a bit more convergence around the 2% goal.

WO-AR200_EUECON_G_20140131180904.jpg

 

 

As for your videos, the first one seems oversimplified and made for people to feel good about it, the other one feels quite unclear with those random treaty quotes and clear opposing agenda. So it's probably best to go via Wikipedia or scholarly articles ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Stability_Mechanism )

 

1 hour ago, Major Trouble said:

 

@Nate There's a job going in London soon. With your clear, concise knowledge you've got my vote.

 

Nah mate, I'm German, and I've read enough internet hate to know I never want to be a politician. I leave that to the lizards :)  ...

 

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See theres a philosophy by the left that I feel is flawed...you cannot legislate human behaviour or beliefs be that religious ideology or secular.  Because you simply say that is illegal or not allowed by law does not mean it s some how under control or handled...human nature is not defined by laws but by desires and beliefs which canot be legislated out or through social engineering.  The union no matter what union it is ; Soviet, US, EU China ect... law does not dictate need or wants...a person or country or state will do as they will by their own will and no law will regulate them or stop them from their free will.  You can ban guns in the EU but the terrorist will still get a gun because of his beliefs and will....We must therefore still have borders and checks and balances and not 100 percent freedom of movement between nations who do not share the same values or beliefs.

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25 minutes ago, Nate said:

Nah mate, I'm German, and I've read enough internet hate to know I never want to be a politician. I leave that to the lizards :)  ...

 

 

Being of German decent hasn't stopped people rising to the top in Britain ;).

 

I feel really bad now having though of you making a good politician. Sorry. Guess you're to truthful for that.

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What the EU needs now is one more layer of bureaucracy, say a department of transparency, in order to be more transparent. Hue

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On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 2:00 PM, Litoralis said:

 

By UN number crunching, Sweden will be a third world country within 20 years.  So probably not a good long term plan for the Swedes and the replacement population when the native Swedes all emigrate/flee.

 

http://ww.rrojasdatabank.info/HDRP_2010_40.pdf

 I mean, but that's not the political systems fault. I see what you're saying and at the current rate I would not doubt it. But as of now the best form of government is largely agreed to be democratic socialism. At least in political circles.

 

The problem is the UK just left a giant conglomerate that made trading a cake walk and the transference of raw commodities to other nations much less of a headache. Now that they have pretty much stuck the middle finger at the largest trading partner they had...well, I don't see it going well at all. If it comes to the EU or the USA competing with British industry without the safety net of the EU...That's a whole different issue. I love the British and I respect the decision they made, but I do see it as being a knee jerk reaction to another problem. The west should be united, not divided.

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4 hours ago, Fritz45 said:

 I mean, but that's not the political systems fault. I see what you're saying and at the current rate I would not doubt it. But as of now the best form of government is largely agreed to be democratic socialism. At least in political circles.

 

In Europe, maybe. But I doubt theres as much of a consensus outside of some EU states. Also, It's no coincidence that Democratic socialism works especially well in countries with small populations. I dont see it as practical in a lot of countries.

Edited by warpigau

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