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Why would you add focus? "Press shift to use your mk2 eyeballs to acquire 2.5x zoom" just no. Completely unrealistic and unnecessary. 

Please remove this feature or atleast decrease the zoom levels of focus to a minimum eg 1.1x maybe 1.5x.

 

First of all, we didn't add it, we actually minimized its presence by a significant margin. Before we gave this compensation as soon as you entered ADS mode to give incentive to use sights, now we moved it over to our focus mechanic instead so that it isn't an inhibiting factor in CQB.

 

Now you can make the choice: focus all your energy on stabilizing your aim (fighting your body's natural tendencies to make figure 8's due to your breathing) for a very limited time, at which point we give a more accurate representation of your sight picture.

 

And it isn't even close to 2.5x. If you really are this passionate about things, please don't over exaggerate your claims. It is in fact closer to 1.4-1.5x as you mention yourself.

 

 

So if somehow you are unable to engage people over 50 meters with iron sights something is wrong with the game itself not the monitors. How am i able to engage enemies and kill them with iron sights in PR in ranges way greater than 50 meters with my small 15.6 inch monitor? Simply does not make sense.

 

Just explain to me why am i able to engage enemies with iron sights over the ranges of few hundred meters in other somewhat realistic games (PR, Ostfront) But somehow that is imposible in this game?

 

 

Also how does the "stabilize weapon" work I wonder? Is it supposed to simulate controlled breathing? Ive participated in 22. shooting competitions and trained with a profesional for them. I was teached how to properly breathe for maximum accuracy etc. I am completely unaware how soldiers train for these type of things but hell we would just aim and and shoot there were no special 10 seconds in which you hold your breath or breathe in some special way for extra stability...

 

 

Those games does not feature weapon sway, so you just point your weapon at that pixel that represents your enemy and wait for the deviation to be zero and get a kill. That is not how a real bullet's trajectory is, nor is that anywhere near the representation of how a weapon acts in a person's hands as you are a shooter yourself, you should know this.

 

Also, since you shoot .22's I assume you only compete on 15-50m ranges. The effects of what you do is greatly multiplied for each additional meter you add to it (in standing pose), as is the challenges of controlling a weapon that isn't a lightweight competition .22 rifle.

 

I had the pleasure of shooting an ak4 at ranges of 100 200 and 300meters. I hit both 100 and 200m targets at the first try but it took me a few more shots to actually land a round on the 300m target. While i am obviously not and excelent sharpshooter take in the fact that i was shooting while being in a prone position completely relaxed with no 100 pounds of equipment bearing me down and I was shooting at human sized targets that were not moving or taking cover behind anything. If i say was running before shooting or would have been shooting while standing up I hitting the target even at 200m would have been much more problematic...

 

 

Difference is that you are able to actually tell it is a human sized target, where as in a video game, that would be 5 pixels at 200m. You don't even know if you are hitting to or bottom of him.

Also when you are attempting these shots, you aren't focused on your surroundings either, especially not the 300m one as we can all agree that is not easy even while at rest in prone.

 

 

Zoom does not help deal with bullet drop annd I am unaware how realisitic the bullet drop is suppsosed to be in squad or is it even implemented yet.

There is sway is project reality except sadly you dont really see the weapon swinging around because the game is old. You can only shoot accurately if you have been stationary for 7 seconds or longer and have your sprint bar full. 

 

 

Zoom doesn't help with bullet drop, but it allows you to see an enemy represented with more pixels, making you able to tell if you are aiming for the top pixel or the bottom pixel of the 5 pixel blob you would otherwise see.. And it isn't really a zoom, it is just giving extra resolution to a little bit of the screen when you need it, but because of monitor limitations, this is perceived as a zoom.

 

There isn't currently any bullet drop, but there will be in the future.

 

There is no sway in PR, but there is deviation. They greatly differ in the way that they try to represent what is going on when a person has a weapon in his hands as well as the weapons characteristics.

 
 

Finally a piece of advice, since this is clearly something that you are deeply passionate about. You are very sarcastic and use big statements. This tends to lead to you not really listening to what the people replying are actually saying, instead of acting out your frustration about the feature in question. And let me tell you, there are a great many reasons why nearly all games do this FOV shift in aimed modes. Even the holy grail of tactical shooters, Rainbox Six 3: Raven Shield uses this in ADS mode. 

 

 

Or do they activate biceps mk3 for extra stability?   ;)

 

So it hasn't been explained a single damned time.

 

 

Im sorry but thats a half-assed answer. 

 

 

The last piece of info I can give you to restore your faith in us being able to represent proper weapon mechanics in a video game is this:

 

The system is designed (and will be continuously developed over the coming years) by:

 

A former US marine Sergeant with a tour of duty in Afghanistan's Sangin area and marksman qualifications. As well as being a highly competitive gamer with a deep understanding of weapon mechanics in games.

 

A guy with a masters degree in user interaction, programming and a deep technical understanding of the limitations of digital technologies when it comes to representing human experiences, as well as being an accomplished shooter with a large array of weapons at his disposal and son of a national champion as well as instructor of both rifle and shotgun disciplines.

 

If that isn't enough to satisfy your gaming needs, then I am afraid that we can't meet your standards.

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Thanks for the answer that changed my opinion somewhat. The argument made by TheGent was the first one that made sense for me. While I still dislike the "focus" mechanic I can understand what you are saying and it makes sense so I guess its just me and I will have to deal with it.

 

But then I have another question - why is the focus and stabilize the same function? Is it simply to make it easier or is there another reason? Im not bitching about it this time im just interested.

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Thanks for the answer that changed my opinion somewhat. The argument made by TheGent was the first one that made sense for me. While I still dislike the "focus" mechanic I can understand what you are saying and it makes sense so I guess its just me and I will have to deal with it.

 

But then I have another question - why is the focus and stabilize the same function? Is it simply to make it easier or is there another reason? Im not bitching about it this time im just interested.

 

I am honestly glad to hear it.

 

We are still open to input, don't get me wrong.

 

The focus and stabilize is moved into the same function right now as an experiment. There are several reasons for it.

 

Before we had the 'zoom' happen on all weapons all the time, and we had the ability to stabilize as a separate key. We didn't like the fact that there was 'zoom' on all weapons by default, and it made people not ADS when in CQB because they lost a lot of peripheral vision.

 

We didn't like this, we want people to aim down sights nearly every time they want to fire their weapon (unless they are desperately trying to suppress while retreating).

 

We also noticed that not many people actually used the stabilization mechanic, so we added more incentive to it by moving the 'zoom' over there.

 

This makes you choose between:

 

1x 'zoom' and as much situational awareness as you can

 

OR 

 

Staying still and trying to put some accurate shots on the enemy you have located, while sacrificing some of your peripheral in the process - just as you would loose some of your awareness of your surroundings as your eye focuses on the front sight and target.

 

So now you actually have to make a real tactical decision that has an impact on what you do and your ability to do the task at hand, this makes it so that you have more to master as a rifleman in the long term, but you will be a force to be reckoned with when you master all the weapon mechanics of sway, stamina, weapon sights, range estimation, tactical decision of sight choice, position, stance ect. ect.

 

The system is obviously not perfect, but we like where it is heading. 

And most of all, we want to see if it improves peoples enjoyment of firing a weapon in the game and having a bit more success with attempting 50m+ shots. Cause what we are seeing now, is the unfortunate tendency of players to try to get up close and flank instead of attempting to shoot an unsuspecting enemy at range in fear that he won't get hit and just run away - giving away your position.

 

So we are definitely keeping a close eye on how this develops and if there is any change in player behavior and success rates as our testers (and soon Rangers) become familiar with the basics of it.

 

I hope that gave some answers, but there are obviously a long list of tiny points that I am not touching in this brief post :)

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Well I am glad to have this answered best of luck with the ongoing development!

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Before you close this thread, I'd just like to put in a suggestion!

 

To prevent the annoying cycle of ADS, fatigue, rest, and repeat. The player could have indefinite ADS while in prone.

 

Now even though this might promote camping, it'll also promote long range combat!

(Hopefully the cons could be countered with suppression or etc, maybe?)

*Edit : I know shooting at anything past 100 meters is unlikely due to opponent pixel size (in video games), I just personally want the genre of long range combat alive. * 

 

Just my two cents on the topic ;) 
P.S. Thanks for being a responsive dev, rare to see in gaming communities these days

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You can always ADS no matter how fatigued you are, just not 'focus' if you are too exhausted 

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To prevent the annoying cycle of ADS, fatigue, rest, and repeat. The player could have indefinite ADS while in prone.

I'm assuming you mean focusing, rather than aiming down sights. When it comes to zooming in, I think you should be able to do it whenever stationary at the very least, if not whenever. As for holding your breath, what Z-Trooper said. Allowing people to do so indefinitely because of their stance will only encourage people to be less mobile.

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Oops, yup, my bad, meant to say focus. More coffee for me hehe!

 

And, I agree that the drawback is : people are more likely to hull down.

 

But we shouldn't stop them if they're trying to do it strategically. Should we?

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if you are exhausted from sprinting and jumping with lots of gear and a weapon on you, you wont be as clear in your mind as a guy who has stood still for a while. It is that simple. Mind your surroundings and anticipate when to fight - that is a tactical decision. not just run and gun without consequences, there are other games on the marked that cater to that.

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It absolutely is, you just hate it before you've even used it.

Well, no. I am a supporter of the shift-zoom.

 

I just didn't think that shift-zoom was an example of prioritizing gameplay over realism. It does both at the same time.

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I am a supporter of the shift-zoom.

I just didn't think that shift-zoom was an example of prioritizing gameplay over realism. It does both at the same time.

I believe he was upset because he felt it detracted from realism, therfore gameplay. I believe it's a feature intended to improve gameplay while keeping regard for realism, but taking small liberties.

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I believe it's a feature intended to improve gameplay while keeping regard for realism, but taking small liberties.

 

Pretty much.

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Why not have the shift-stability aspect tied to Stamina and the shift-zoom ability separate, with both tied to a single key (presumably shift)? 

 

If you are stationary, but low stamina, holding shift still gives you zoom (simulating the human eye's natural ability to focus on an object) but the amount of added stability you gain is reduced, since your character is fatigued. 

 

Alternatively, both could be tied to stamina, taking Z-Trooper's point that a fatigued soldier would have a harder time both holding his breath (shift-stability) and focusing (shift-zoom).

 

If you are stationary, but low stamina, holding shift gives reduced (but still some) zoom, and the amount of added stability is of course reduced. I would assume that the amount of zoom and stability gained could be tied to the amount of Stamina, although there could be a drop-off point, such as when Stamina enters the red zone, in which no stability and/or zoom is gained.

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Your ability to stabilise and focus are prevented when in the orange already.

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i look at it like this: "zoomed" FoV for sighting is the more "Realistic" view considering monitor dimensions and resolution - it feels right.

and we are simply pulling back (widening FoV) for unsighted view that allows more peipheral detail . . .

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Can I point out that the OP is complaining about a feature that, as I understand it, technically is a toggled option, you would surely be required to press a button (usually LShift) in order to "focus". If its soooo unrealistic for you, don't press shift... That said, I so find it odd that in PR, even with how blind I am even with my glasses I can accurately fire with iron sights, but after this long I've learnt to trust the Devs.

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Also ban if you cant kill enemies  with iron sights at ranges over 200m in PR  i can only say one thing to you  - git gud.

I know you somewhat changed your mind, but I'm still reviving this thread because I found this to be a little suspicious. I did a small test on my own.

 

This is what targets look like in PR at ~200m on a 1680x1050 display at 8x anti-aliasing (The images had to be converted to jpg, so they admittedly won't look as sharp as they do in-game):

Looking at the targets with the naked eye

Looking at them through a GLTD (185m range)

 

Can you honestly say that you can reliably hit those targets? After recording a demo and observing the playback, I can say that my hit-rate AS THE TARGETS DREW CLOSER was about 30-40%. Better than I expected, but still not reflective of a real-life scenario in which I'm completely still and focused.

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Removed field of view shift from aimed mode, and added it to a focus mechanic that ties into the stamina system

From the June update: http://joinsquad.com/readArticle?articleId=32

 

Literally the same discussion was had on the Tripwire forums when RO2 implemented it

 

Except on RO2 maps the majority of firefights take place in the 75-150m range, it's rare to even have a line of sight out to 300m. With no zoom at those ranges, the battles are more fun imo. I think adding zoom was a mistake there, but whatever, the community likes it.

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From the June update: http://joinsquad.com/readArticle?articleId=32

 

 

Except on RO2 maps the majority of firefights take place in the 75-150m range, it's rare to even have a line of sight out to 300m. With no zoom at those ranges, the battles are more fun imo. I think adding zoom was a mistake there, but whatever, the community likes it.

 

I agree mate. The IOM mod is so much fun without the zoom.

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How about giving all weapons a 1.5x multiplier when aiming down sights? When using an Acog 4x it would be a 6x effective zoom, making 3-400m engagements that much easier. Same with sniper rifles. 10x=15x effective. Etc, etc.

 

 

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How about giving all weapons a 1.5x multiplier when aiming down sights? When using an Acog 4x it would be a 6x effective zoom

This brings a question to mind. When we say "4x magnification", in game terms is that just the default FOV narrowed by a factor of 4, and would that be any different to "true" 4x, attempting to more accurately recreat what you'd see through a 4x scope? Our fields of view and ability to see objects at distance differ in the game from reality, just wondering how that affects magnification in general. 

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How about giving all weapons a 1.5x multiplier when aiming down sights?

 

I disagree, because then you wouldnt be as effective at extremely close quarters, this way, we can have the best of both worlds.

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From the June update: http://joinsquad.com/readArticle?articleId=32

 

 

Except on RO2 maps the majority of firefights take place in the 75-150m range, it's rare to even have a line of sight out to 300m. With no zoom at those ranges, the battles are more fun imo. I think adding zoom was a mistake there, but whatever, the community likes it.

I also did not like it in RO 2, the Firefights in RO:Ostfront and Darkest Hours are alot longer because you dont have that feature, then again in Squad i does make sense also from the Videos I saw the Weapons arent as Stable as in RO 2. (I love long lasting firefights alot!)

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