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Scope Implementation Discussion

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On my desk in front of me there are 2 match grade rifle scopes, 2 hunting scopes and a reflex sight + a masters degree in design and user interaction.

You keep your degree on your desk? Frame it and hang that shit up! :P

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Thanks for the information. I definitely support this choice. As picture in picture scopes (R2T) are such a drop on the performance it would not be a viable option for now. Maybe later as you saud. A solid performance is always the number one feature to reach. It's of no use to anyone if the game is actually dropping frames. So i appreciate this. Perhaps in the meantime there will be fixes in UE4 itself. Who knows.

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Yeah the 'PiP' is like way too ugly.
Im not into call of duty anymore, and battlefield is the closest i Get to playing war games.
but take some examples from games like Red Orchestra 2 That felt like a was actually in a war at times.
The game you guys will present to us is hopefully going to feel like a real war, and from what i have seen it IS a real war zone almost.
So keep the good work up and dont let us down we're counting on this !

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Something more like this although this PSO doesn't seem to have the rubber eye protection thing. At the moment the scope image in Squad is very small (I know its WIP, just feedback)

Pso-1onsvd.jpg

 

 

 

I agree with this completely !! ^^^^

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So, in general, the render texture (the bit that is displayed on the scope... the 'picture' in the picture) must be at a much lower resolution than the rest of the screen to have a good framerate.  Like, we are talking over 80% lower resolution (eg: 1920x1080 main screen to 256x256 scope, an 86% reduction in resolution of the world), and that still drops us far below 60fps.   Take any picture of a game and render it at 256x256, and you'd agree it looks like garbage.  It's all pixelated and gross.  

Had to re-watch some of the woodland footage to see what you're talking about at full resolution.  I get ya.
 
I see your image of a 4x PSO-1 and raise you a BelOMO 8X42 POSP!  I haven't exactly measured it, but it's about 14-16" in length with the rubber eyepiece.  Great scope.  
 
628817486c.png

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The front sight post looks very out of place looking through a acog. I never notice it when im looking down mine,and im sure others have the same experience.

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The front sight post looks very out of place looking through a acog. I never notice it when im looking down mine,and im sure others have the same experience.

A very blurred front post would be more accurate but I'm unsure if this is possible with the new system?

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A very blurred front post would be more accurate but I'm unsure if this is possible with the new system?

I don't think there's a perfect solution for that.  It seems to be; either blur it, or remove it entirely for magnified optic equipped rifles

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I am ok with that.

 

What I am worried about is the optics beeing OP. Right now in PR, 90% of the squad has optics mounted. Because it gives so much more precision and ability to engage farther targets. The problem is that aimpoint or ironsights are just plain worse at everything in PR, as close targets can be easily neutralised with hip fire.

 

Will you give some kind of bonus to weapon handling without a scope or way better movment speed while aiming without scope attached? Or maybe limit it to rifleman, marksman and sniper, LMG only? So that all other specialised kits can't use optics.

 

Because for now in PR its just everywhere and everybody has it.

I see bigger problem there, than is non-3d scopes. ( I don't like RO type scopes anyway :P)

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I am ok with that.

 

What I am worried about is the optics beeing OP. Right now in PR, 90% of the squad has optics mounted. Because it gives so much more precision and ability to engage farther targets. The problem is that aimpoint or ironsights are just plain worse at everything in PR, as close targets can be easily neutralised with hip fire.

 

Will you give some kind of bonus to weapon handling without a scope or way better movment speed while aiming without scope attached? Or maybe limit it to rifleman, marksman and sniper, LMG only? So that all other specialised kits can't use optics.

 

Because for now in PR its just everywhere and everybody has it.

I see bigger problem there, than is non-3d scopes. ( I don't like RO type scopes anyway :P)

I wouldnt' use PR's shooting as an example for Squad, the sway in Squad system changes things drastically and will make sighted shooting more difficult, although I always believe sighted weapons should have the advantage over not, that's realistic. Kits will be limited to certain optics.

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Its unfortunate that it hasn't worked out right now. Ditching the concept at this stage is completely understandable though I really hope it is definitely revisited in the future as it is a game changing feature. I for one would be happy with a toggle on/off option for high end pc's.  

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I wouldnt' use PR's shooting as an example for Squad, the sway in Squad system changes things drastically and will make sighted shooting more difficult, although I always believe sighted weapons should have the advantage over not, that's realistic. Kits will be limited to certain optics.

If that was true, then every military unit would use optics instead of red-dot. Its just the fact that most don't. Because optics are not so perfect. Mostly there is a Marksman in a squad and maybe MG has it. (what I see from combat footage)

 

I like them, but IRL they are more cumbersome in use than one might think. My friend had 8x on his ASG replica. It was nice, but your realy needed to settle and take your time to aim, finding the reference point is way harder than in game I find. Maybe its just my own experience, but aligning with the scope took me usually about 10 sec. While without it it takes me 1 sec.

 

To me the difference between both types should be more pronounced or optics should be limited to very few classes.

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If that was true, then every military unit would use optics instead of red-dot. Its just the fact that most don't. Because optics are not so perfect. Mostly there is a Marksman in a squad and maybe MG has it. (what I see from combat footage)

 

I like them, but IRL they are more cumbersome in use than one might think. My friend had 8x on his ASG replica. It was nice, but your realy needed to settle and take your time to aim, finding the reference point is way harder than in game I find. Maybe its just my own experience, but aligning with the scope took me usually about 10 sec. While without it it takes me 1 sec.

 

To me the difference between both types should be more pronounced or optics should be limited to very few classes.

Obviously when I talk of sighted weapons having an advantage, I mean likely to be more accurate over longer ranges, making them overall more effective. Also I would say military units are much more likely to use magnified optics than red dots...

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Obviously when I talk of sighted weapons having an advantage, I mean likely to be more accurate over longer ranges, making them overall more effective. Also I would say military units are much more likely to use magnified optics than red dots...

Well, yeah. I just mean that they aren't as wide spread. Maybe now I've seen more ACOGs in US army in afghanistan.

 

But still. I think there should a more pronounced game mechanic(s) that would make aimpoint/iron sights more viable during standard combat. I am drawing from my experience from PR mostly, as devs come from the same place.

 

I would suggest mostly that they would make movment while aiming with an optic slow and time to bring the optic to an eye a little bit longer than with aimpoint. While sights would be almost instant with additional bonus from beeing able to move with faster pace while aiming.

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Well, yeah. I just mean that they aren't as wide spread. Maybe now I've seen more ACOGs in US army in afghanistan.

 

But still. I think there should a more pronounced game mechanic(s) that would make aimpoint/iron sights more viable during standard combat. I am drawing from my experience from PR mostly, as devs come from the same place.

 

I would suggest mostly that they would make movment while aiming with an optic slow and time to bring the optic to an eye a little bit longer than with aimpoint. While sights would be almost instant with additional bonus from beeing able to move with faster pace while aiming.

Its going to be class dependant so that red dots/iron sights get used if people want to use classes like Grenadier/Engineer, which will be integral parts of the game. I don't think we will need to worry that everyone will be running around with Acogs.

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I just spent last night with Z doing a weapon pass. I will be making an update video that will address some of these concerns. I'm on mobile right now, so not really going to type a whole write up at there moment.

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If that was true, then every military unit would use optics instead of red-dot. Its just the fact that most don't. Because optics are not so perfect. Mostly there is a Marksman in a squad and maybe MG has it. (what I see from combat footage)

 

I like them, but IRL they are more cumbersome in use than one might think. My friend had 8x on his ASG replica. It was nice, but your realy needed to settle and take your time to aim, finding the reference point is way harder than in game I find. Maybe its just my own experience, but aligning with the scope took me usually about 10 sec. While without it it takes me 1 sec.

 

To me the difference between both types should be more pronounced or optics should be limited to very few classes.

 

I believe most armies don't issue scopes because of them being a cost issue when being bought in quantities of >50k. Depending on which type of assault rifle you field, "proper" Assault Rifles such as the M16 or G36 can make use of a scope due to their above average precision(up to 500m depending on shooter's skill), whereas Carbines such as the M4 fall a bit short in that category and don't necessarily need a scope to shoot on their maximum reliable range(let's say 300m for argument's sake).

It also depends on the situation at hand; in CQC a rifle fitted with a scope without back up sights is certainly ill-suited when the enemy uses ambushes and surprise tactics, but if you're fighting over open fields, in the desert or during winter where there's no foliage to use as camouflage, a scope helps both in terms of accuracy and target recognition. Which is one of the reasons why I like the G36, optics on long range, red dot up close, you can't go wrong.

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I just spent last night with Z doing a weapon pass. I will be making an update video that will address some of these concerns. I'm on mobile right now, so not really going to type a whole write up at there moment.

Sounds good!

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You guys know the standard issue sight for regular Marine infantry units is the ACOG RCO, right?

The Army has a bit more variation, but RCOs are pretty common. We will balance things for gameplay purposes though.

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So, in general, the render texture (the bit that is displayed on the scope... the 'picture' in the picture) must be at a much lower resolution than the rest of the screen to have a good framerate.  Like, we are talking over 80% lower resolution (eg: 1920x1080 main screen to 256x256 scope, an 86% reduction in resolution of the world), and that still drops us far below 60fps.   Take any picture of a game and render it at 256x256, and you'd agree it looks like garbage.  It's all pixelated and gross.  

 

 

Maybe a stupid question;

But what happens if did that process in reverse?

For example when scopes appear on screen, the main screen turns to 256x256 while the scope is rendered at 1920x1080?

Would that save FPS and provide a blurry appearance to outside the scope while everything inside was crystal clear?

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Maybe a stupid question;

But what happens if did that process in reverse?

Fund it.

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Maybe a stupid question;

But what happens if did that process in reverse?

For example when scopes appear on screen, the main screen turns to 256x256 while the scope is rendered at 1920x1080?

Would that save FPS and provide a blurry appearance to outside the scope while everything inside was crystal clear?

Not silly at all, don't know if they have tested it though

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Maybe a stupid question;

But what happens if did that process in reverse?

For example when scopes appear on screen, the main screen turns to 256x256 while the scope is rendered at 1920x1080?

Would that save FPS and provide a blurry appearance to outside the scope while everything inside was crystal clear?

You would not get it blurry, you would get it pixelated like hell.

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