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Discussion: Mines and IEDs

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One of my favourite things to do in PR is to play as an OpFor sapper. Whether it's Taliban, HAMAS, Iraqi Insurgents, or Militia, I really enjoy getting my hands on the Victim Operated Water Container IED and using it to deny road-access to enemy infantry, logistics, and APCs (done with the help of an ammunition driver and ammunition assistant: great fun! :) ).

 

Although I happen to not be an insurgent sapper in real life, one of the things that I know about PR is that the depiction of how mines work is not realistic. For example, nobody just tosses M15 mines on a road and leaves them there hoping that an enemy will drive over it (they are hidden underneath the dirt, surely).

 

With UE4, there's a huge opportunity for the devs to implement mines & IEDs in a realistic manner and to add more depth to the entire mine-planting and mine-avoidance system. Let's have a thread to talk about this would exactly entail. I hope that some people with military knowledge or military experience can contribute to this discussion.

 

 

(for the sake of convenience, let's consider all IEDs/boobytraps/etc. to be "mines"):

1.) What kinds of terrain types are not suitable for mine placement? Does any kind of soil/dirt work?

2.) Is it possible to place an AT mine underneath a paved road?

3.) What kinds of AP mines should be available to unconventional forces?

4.) Are there AP mines which do not need to be place underneath the ground?

5.) How should F1 grenade boobytraps be triggered? How do they work exactly? Which classes should be allowed to place them?

6.) If a mine is placed beneath the ground, how obvious would it be? Would an enemy soldier be able to identify "bad dirt" just by the appearance? Or is it indistinguishable from the undisturbed dirt?

7.) Should it take just as long in SQUAD to place an AT mine as it does in real life? Would it be better to have unrealistic preparation time for the sake of gameplay?

8.) If it is impossible to place AT mines on things which aren't dirt, how should sappers boobytrap things like bridges?

9.) Should there be any kind of animations for the mine-placing process?

10.) Should mines hidden underneath ground be represented by some kind of StaticMeshActor or DecalActor?

11.) ... please feel free to add your own questions to the list.

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There was an EOD guy in here back in April...that started a thread on some of these topics.

Im all for mine detecting equipment for EOD guy, thats the only way to clear mines hidden in road or trail.

And hidden means we cant see em til mine guy detects them and marks or disarms them.

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There was an EOD guy in here back in April...that started a thread on some of these topics.

Im all for mine detecting equipment for EOD guy, thats the only way to clear mines hidden in road or trail.

And hidden means we cant see em til mine guy detects them and marks or disarms them.

EOD isn't exactly a fitting role for something like Squad. Both army infantry and army combat engineers/sappers have the training and tools to detect and clear mines or IEDs.

EOD acts more as a forensics team. If an unusually large amount of explosives are found by infantry or sappers, EOD is called(which typically takes hours) and then they will investigate it. They will then disarm the bomb, and bring it in to see if it has any fingerprints or design comparisons to other devices in order to track the bomb maker down.

If the IED isn't worth calling EOD, then we just blow it up ourselves.

But, a lot of this depends on the mission, location, and time in history. We had an EOD unit attached to our route clearance convoy a couple times. Just know that The Hurt Locker is a very inaccurate movie.

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I'd like the ability to manually place a trip wire. Similar to at 4:40 in this video of Sniper Elite 2

 

 

I do think there should be a way to clear mines other than throwing a body at one. 

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Not having IED's in paved roads is kind of a cool idea, makes it so that someone actually has to detognate it and hide it next to the road, or in a car maybe. I'm not sure how they would implement that though.

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How about IEDs will look like some static (bootles or some dirt) so player will thinks is it an IED or just a dirt. Suspicious things will make some tension.

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How about IEDs will look like some static (bootles or some dirt) so player will thinks is it an IED or just a dirt. Suspicious things will make some tension.

StaticMeshActors that look like dirt are rarely the exact same color as the dirt surrounding it. Also, there is a hard lighting seam at the intersection of the dirt StaticMesh and the Landscape. This makes them very easy to identify by the regular player. If the devs want to make underground IEDs hard to spot, then this way would not work. So I thought a DecalActor might be better? (And there is still the question: do we even want the udnerground IEDs to be possible to spot? Is that realistic or unrealistic?)

 

For bottle IEDs to work, there have to be lots of very similar-looking bottles placed throughout the level. This would probably be a lot easier for the devs to do, and it would look natural and realistic.

 

It would be very nice for some people with military background to provide some input here, as I only have experience from a game modding perspective.

 

 

I'd like the ability to manually place a trip wire. Similar to at 4:40 in this video of Sniper Elite 2

 

Looks really cool. Assuming these kinds of 2-point tripwires are a realistic thing, then should ground placement be the only consideration for SQUAD? What if I wanted to place a tripwire diagonally across a doorway, to make hopping over it impossible?

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I wouldn't want to see mines used by conventional factions, unless they were part of minefields.

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I say just implement the exact same system as PR. It's awesome and fun.

???

Even the part of tossing naked M15 mines on top of the ground like frisbees?

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I completely agree that the way explosives are deployed in the game should be seriously evaluated. Ability to instantly distinguish them makes them completely inefficient against experienced players, but if properly implemented they can drastically improve defensive strategies by slowing enemy down. Visually unidentifiable mines should deter any vehicle driver from just blindly rushing his next target.

 

I also don't think that there is a specific need to implement mine seeking equipment, just implement a command for IED specialist which, for example, takes 10-20 seconds to execute and points to mine locations in certain radius (only visible by him). Then he can either deactivate them or deploy some sort of markers that everyone can see. Such change would put this kit on a par with medic and rifleman specialist (breacher).

 

That's just my two cents.

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I wouldn't want to see mines used by conventional factions, unless they were part of minefields.

 

I'd like to see Minefield's, it would be interesting if they were made a deployable asset for Commander's or if during the Warm up phase only one or two could be placed for the entire round. To make it a bit more gameplay friendly, have part's of the field automatically show up on everyone's map (the same way you have friendly Player indicator's) the moment they're detected.

 

And a Gameplay friendly idea for a booby-trap (If door's ever get implemented into the game): Glass jar with unpinned Hand Grenade inside placed on handle of door, someone open's it, Glass fall's and smashes leaving grenade cooking on floor of building being entered.

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One of my favourite things to do in PR is to play as an OpFor sapper. Whether it's Taliban, HAMAS, Iraqi Insurgents, or Militia, I really enjoy getting my hands on the Victim Operated Water Container IED and using it to deny road-access to enemy infantry, logistics, and APCs (done with the help of an ammunition driver and ammunition assistant: great fun! :) ).

 

Although I happen to not be an insurgent sapper in real life, one of the things that I know about PR is that the depiction of how mines work is not realistic. For example, nobody just tosses M15 mines on a road and leaves them there hoping that an enemy will drive over it (they are hidden underneath the dirt, surely).

 

With UE4, there's a huge opportunity for the devs to implement mines & IEDs in a realistic manner and to add more depth to the entire mine-planting and mine-avoidance system. Let's have a thread to talk about this would exactly entail. I hope that some people with military knowledge or military experience can contribute to this discussion.

 

 

(for the sake of convenience, let's consider all IEDs/boobytraps/etc. to be "mines"):

1.) What kinds of terrain types are not suitable for mine placement? Does any kind of soil/dirt work?

In theory that when you did broaden the term "mine" it can be done. For typical landmine (AT / AP) only restriction is that you can dig the soil. Swamp might be too much for many types of AT mines since they usually need some force applied to brake the detonator mechanism (usually 100ish kilos). I don't go to cluster aT/aP which plethora of trigger mechanism (wires, vibration, magnetic or mix).

In hard surfaces can be used mines using explosively formed penetrator (EFP) princible detonating horizontally in active or passive detonation.

2.) Is it possible to place an AT mine underneath a paved road?

Not without braking the surface or digging tunnel underneath. If there is some sort of well covers and stuff one might use those as a place to enter under the surface to get "clean" look.

3.) What kinds of AP mines should be available to unconventional forces?

Handnades and other IED type of devices. Don't know.

4.) Are there AP mines which do not need to be place underneath the ground?

Yes, many. Claymores (in many sizes and makes), lots and lots of cluster mines, cluster bomb fragments (as they are used as mines since there is a hole in threaty, different kind of devices that are set off by observer, pipe type of mines standing own feets or attached to trees. Wire, vibration, tilt, magnetic or pressure detonation.

5.) How should F1 grenade boobytraps be triggered? How do they work exactly? Which classes should be allowed to place them?

I'm not familiar with F1 nade, but I assume that the construction is similar than other egg nades with spoon, pin, hammer and primer. So basicly F1 to solid object with ie. gorilla glue, and use paracord inners as a tripwire like in claymore. String attached to the pin and pin is pulled "almost" loose.

6.) If a mine is placed beneath the ground, how obvious would it be? Would an enemy soldier be able to identify "bad dirt" just by the appearance? Or is it indistinguishable from the undisturbed dirt?

If one knows what to do no one know without tools (minesweeper etc.). One must make desicion is it a trap or scary "minefield" there is use for both. Claymore will vanish in forest pretty nicely if you lift the moss from some rock and place it around the claymore.. you can sit on it and only then you might temperary notice that it were not a rock.

7.) Should it take just as long in SQUAD to place an AT mine as it does in real life? Would it be better to have unrealistic preparation time for the sake of gameplay?

Yes it should be much less and no mine box carrying thx.

8.) If it is impossible to place AT mines on things which aren't dirt, how should sappers boobytrap things like bridges?

There is ways

9.) Should there be any kind of animations for the mine-placing process?

I don't know.

10.) Should mines hidden underneath ground be represented by some kind of StaticMeshActor or DecalActor?

Might be good for the gameplay

11.) ... please feel free to add your own questions to the list.

For mines there is two important ways how they work 1. mental (ie. IEDs and how they effect everything western military need to do) 2. physical (some goes boom).

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Which is why pre-round placeable Minefield's could be interesting for Gameplay. If the Insurgent Commander could place them, Player's on the US team would probably move around more cautiously knowing they were out there somewhere:

 

https://youtu.be/U2-5rRTWyiU?t=2055

 

would create a good dynamic imo, like if they visually marked the area they were put in so placing them in the middle a road would mean they'd get seen easily, so it'd be better to place them in area's with dense Foliage like shown in the video.

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Which is why pre-round placeable Minefield's could be interesting for Gameplay. If the Insurgent Commander could place them, Player's on the US team would probably move around more cautiously knowing they were out there somewhere:

https://youtu.be/U2-5rRTWyiU?t=2055

would create a good dynamic imo, like if they visually marked the area they were put in so placing them in the middle a road would mean they'd get seen easily, so it'd be better to place them in area's with dense Foliage like shown in the video.

i really like this idea

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One thing that was an improvement was when mines were changed to not sit on the surface. There was one thing that never got solved, and that was the ability to match the "disturbed ground" object to the terrain it was being place on.

 

That should be switchable using the weapon fire-mode key. In the case of PR it would be hitting the Mine button over and over to select the matching terrain.

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Which is why pre-round placeable Minefield's could be interesting for Gameplay. If the Insurgent Commander could place them, Player's on the US team would probably move around more cautiously knowing they were out there somewhere:

 

https://youtu.be/U2-5rRTWyiU?t=2055

 

would create a good dynamic imo, like if they visually marked the area they were put in so placing them in the middle a road would mean they'd get seen easily, so it'd be better to place them in area's with dense Foliage like shown in the video.

 

 

i really like this idea

 

This actually a great idea that might actually slow players down a bit rather then sprinting 24/7. Will definitely make people more cautious.

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There is TM-62 AT-mine , it is ok, but the name must be TM-62M .

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About realism with IED´s, it shouldnt be possible to activate IED´s after respawn, it isnt realistic. Some People abusing it by constantly playing suicide biker. Its still possible when someone else would place the IED on the bike and u drive it in and than he activates it. But this requires more communication and work and even two guys working on this tactic. Mines can stay after death, cause thats how it would be in real.

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1 hour ago, Rangarson said:

About realism with IED´s, it shouldnt be possible to activate IED´s after respawn, it isnt realistic. Some People abusing it by constantly playing suicide biker. Its still possible when someone else would place the IED on the bike and u drive it in and than he activates it. But this requires more communication and work and even two guys working on this tactic. Mines can stay after death, cause thats how it would be in real.

 

^ While I agree with this, the fix needs to be a two part fix. If the scout chooses to go suicide on a bike or in vehicle, they need the ability to trigger the device while in the vehicle. Currently, you cannot trigger unless you exit the vehicle (since the focus is: "cause that's not real"), implementing the ability to trigger while in vehicles will help solve this. Current-state, its almost a penalty to attempt > jump out in advance > hope to not get shot > switch to phone > try to detonate 3sec delay.

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