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RIP Admin Abuse and server rules not in line with server license rules

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Admin Abuse

I played on the: [RIP] RustyInPlaces UK/EU #1.

My squad name was: ONLY [DDF]. I was the squad lead and was normally playing squad. As the squad name suggest, my squad was only for DDF (Dutch Deadly Forces). [Rip]Dean and a random guy joined my squad. I told the random guy that my squad is a [DDF] only squad and waited 8 seconds but no response so i kicked him. Then [Rip]Dean. The conversation:

 

Funkmen  '[Rip]Dean I will kick you this is [DDF] only.'

Dean          'I would not do that friend/m8.'       -  Translated from dutch

Dean          'You are playing on my server. Then you have to ....(sound disappeared).        -  Translated from dutch

Funkmen   'Then you should read the server rules to get a license again. Translated from dutch

Funkmen   'The rules say that squad leads themselves may determine whether they kick someone or not.'       -  Translated from dutch

Funkmen   'So yhea..'          -  Translated from dutch

Dean           'I'd say, try it boy. Then is the entire [DDF] off the server.      - Translated from dutch

Funkmen    'Then i will get my recorder running'       - Translated from dutch

A [DDF] member     ' well then you do that'       - Translated from dutch

Dean           'Look, that is the big advantage of being a admin.'     - Translated from dutch

A [DDF] member     'So that would be abuse.'    - Translated from dutch

Funkmen    'Yes, but abusement is also something.'    - Translated from dutch

Funkmen    'And then the server license gets in danger.'   - Translated from dutch

A [DDF] member 'Anyhow we only have 13 tickets'   - Translated from dutch

Dean stopped talking and we continued playing.

20 seconds later i kicked him.

I did my best to translate it fair.

 

The conversation was also recorded See this link: Link to the Funkmen and Dean recording

0:00 - 1:00 The conversation

2:31  Me Funkmen getting kicked

 

The reason for him to kick me: kicking for no good reason.

 

What does the game server administration guidelines(condition of holding a license) say?

'~ Squad leaders should be free to kick members of their squad for any reason they choose.'

Link: Game Server Administration Guidelines

 

What actions should i take to prevent him banning the [DDF]clan/community?

 

 

Server rules not in line with server license rules?

Because i wanted to know if the [RIP] server rules are in line with the server license rules i checked them and saw this:

  • use teamwork
  • listen to you squad leader
  • no locked squads
  • do not team switch more than once within a 5 minute period
  • no attacking uncappable bases, which means:
  • no personnel may enter an enemy uncappable base
  • no shooting weapons of any kind into an enemy uncappable base
  • no spawn killing in an uncappable base|utf-8

Link: ripserverrules

This rule: 'no locked squads'.

It can be discussed if this is against the following server license rule.

'~ Squad leaders should be free to kick members of their squad for any reason they choose.'

When i'm free to kick members for any reason then i can lock my squad(I may kick all players but keep my select few).

 

 

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" [Rip]Dean and a random guy joined my squad. I told the random guy that my squad is a [DDF] only squad and waited 8 seconds but no response so i kicked him. Then [Rip]Dean."

 

First, don't be a dick.  If you wish to only play with your clan mates, politely ASK other players that join your squad to make room for your mates.  Telling them your squad is "[DDF] only" and giving someone 8 seconds to respond before you just kick them, is (IMHO) you acting like an ass. 

 

As for RIP possibly losing their server license:

 

 

"Please note that once we have issued a license, we will almost always refrain from revoking a license unless there is a very serious violation of our guidelines. In the event that we consider revoking a license, the circumstances will be analyzed carefully and on a case-by-case basis."

 

So your veiled threat about trying to get their server license revoked, would most likely amount to nothing.

 

It basically comes down to, If you don't like the rules on a particular server...leave and go play on another one.

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SSIXS,

 

I may be biased here, but telling someone they will be kicked after they have joined a squad that's named 'DDF only' is not a rude move. It's already implied by the squad name. It may be that in Dutch it's different from English. But if you listen to the Dutch recording you can clearly hear your clan server's admin threatening our community and being rude. Normally we don't have any problems creating clan-only squads and it's respected in the Squad community that clans can form exlusive squads. 

 

As for the likelyhood of your server license being revoked, that's the rules and we will respect that. It's well known that RIP is one of the bigger Squad communities and I can understand that one server admin's rudeness and abuse of the community will not result in the revoking of that license.

 

Our clan does however expect an apology. Dean threatened to ban our clan from your server and kicked one of our admins, while Funkmen did nothing that was against the rules. We love playing on your server but we don't want a bad action of one of your server admins to ruin the experience of the Squad community. Your members are fun to play with or against but you may want to reconsider Dean as a server administrator.

 

Jurrien

Administrator of DDF

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thank you for posting this, we will indeed look into this issue as it is against our rules for admins to kick players for kicking them from a squad. This is a clear rule violation.

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Chiming in here from the perspective of a CML server administrator.

 

Firstly, your title to this thread is completely unnecessary. You're essentially defaming RIP, claiming admin abuse as a result of a situation that I think you're looking at all wrong. One that should be discussed instead of jumping straight to claiming admin abuse. 

 

As a server host with a Squad Community Server license, RIP has the ability to set their own rules (within OWI's license guidelines), and do what they can to uphold those rules. That includes kicking players (like yourself) that don't abide by the rules.

 

Nowhere in OWI's server license agreement does it state that a community can't create a rule that entitles them to kick Squad Leaders if they are doing something unreasonable. RIP has the rule which states 'No locked squads'. This is exactly what you're doing. You're implementing a feature that doesn't even exist in game. That's unreasonable. 

 

In my eyes, the server admin handled the situation perfectly. He told you that you shouldn't kick him. Your sound cut out, but I'd imagine he said "You're playing on my server. Then you have to [abide by the rules].". You had fair warning. You were braking the rules. That's a kick in my books. Let's not get into technicalities that you didn't hear him say it. You claim the sound cut out, which means you didn't understand him. You should have asked him to clarify. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he notified you it was against the rules.

 

You're calling out respectable community, one that's providing the squad community as a whole a place to play in a fair server, when you're the one in the wrong. You join a server that's being paid/administrated by someone else, expecting to prevent others from playing in your squad. Breaking the server rules in an attempt to lock out their visitors.

 

Sounds a lot like entitlement to me. You don't like it? Don't play there.

 

I get it's a grey area. But it's your tact in bringing light to the situation that I especially don't agree with. 

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Jurrien,

 

I am not the least bit biased, as I'm not a part of the RIP clan.  I never stated or insinuated that I am in any way affiliated with that clan.

 

As far as rudeness is concerned, I happen to think Funkmen was rather rude as well.  While addressing a member of the clan who runs the server, he could have exercised some etiquette and said something to the effect of...Dean, would you mind leaving the squad to make room for my clan mates?   Instead, he just spouts off '[Rip]Dean I will kick you this is [DDF] only.'

 

While I'm not necessarily defending Dean's threat to ban your clan members, I do happen to think that Funkmen created the situation by not offering at least a little respect to a member of the clan that rents/runs the very server he was playing on.

 

This didn't even occur at the beginning or even close to the middle of the match.  Funkmen started this with 14 tickets left, and ended up kicking Dean from the squad after the conversation between them ended and everyone continued playing. I think kicking someone out of a squad when the match is practically over is just immature. 

 

If Funkmen had just left it alone and finished the last few minutes of the match without antagonizing Dean, he likely wouldn't have been kicked from the server.

 

If you want or expect an apology from Dean or someone in the RIP clan...maybe you should also consider having Funkmen issue an apology for not exercising proper gaming etiquette, and (from my perspective) igniting this whole situation?

 

To me, this thread just comes across as an attempt to try and smear another clan.

Edited by SSIXS

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7 hours ago, SSIXS said:

" [Rip]Dean and a random guy joined my squad. I told the random guy that my squad is a [DDF] only squad and waited 8 seconds but no response so i kicked him. Then [Rip]Dean."

 

First, don't be a dick.  If you wish to only play with your clan mates, politely ASK other players that join your squad to make room for your mates.  Telling them your squad is "[DDF] only" and giving someone 8 seconds to respond before you just kick them, is (IMHO) you acting like an ass.

Uhm no.

 

He named his Squad "[DDF] only", which has to be enough from his point and the actual rule that he can kick who he wants for whatever reason, plays along just fine with that. If I see a squad that is exclusive for a clan because they want to play together and "undisturbed", I won't even think about joining because THAT would be the actual dick move if you think about it!

 

Even if he named it just "Delta" or whatever, he can do so. "Being a dick" has nothing to do with the very clear rules that totally support how he acted. He could have kicked them without a word. Sure, it isn't nice, but it is supported by the rules.

Like it or not, he did nothing wrong at all and is 100% right in this case, while the admin completely failed and decided to put his personal lust for power over actually sticking to the dev-made rules he once agreed on. An admin, as the person in charge, has to be the one who finds the diplomatic solution. In no fucking way he should act like that clown did who clearly can't handle admin rights.

 

This, together with his complete ass-hat behavior "try me boy, yadda yadda" is, in my eyes, enough to at least hand out a clear warning and let him know that this shit won't be tolerated and will have consequences next time.

 

I am new here, I am no PR vet etc. but in my opinion this (any) community should stick to a certain base attitude: "No time for bullshit!"

With this attitude, we won't ever have huge debates over sissi-shit and it is clear what is expected of SL, admins and others "in charge".

Don't like it? Go play minecraft.

Personally, I am sick and tired of developers or admins tolerating people who clearly misbehave and do not follow rules they agreed on.

This is unacceptable and I can only hope it won't happen in this game. For example, if I am an admin and I witness a player acting like a 12yo retard by mic-spamming, provoking team members, running around them in circles, not listening to squad leaders etc, I would simply ban them without warning. Why waste time with people who are clearly not interested in playing Squad and who just ruin it for others? Just an example to underline what I mean by "no BS attitude"...

 

Squad needs a "no BS" environment so we can focus on the game and community, instead of power hungry fail-admins who wanted to show how big their eBalls are.

Pathetic in my opinion, really.

 

/rant

(sorry)

Edited by Lethargo

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Speaking as a [RIP] Clan leader (and not as a moderator) I am going to say the following:

 

Firstly we take any claims of admin abuse very seriously and all are members are made aware that when they wear our tags, they are representing our clan and any misuse or abuse of server rules/clan rules will result in members being removed from our clan.

 

With that being said, we have always had a strict server rule of "no locked squads" and while you cannot physically lock a squad within this particular game, we see "??? Only" as being a locked squad. However, even ourselves will sometimes politely ask non-members to leave a squad on a Friday night which is our infamous "RIP vs The World" evening of gaming to make room for clan members. The key word here is "politely"....

 

Having viewed your submitted evidence and listened to your "attitude" and your "I'm untouchable" stance, I fully back our admin on this occasion and see his actions as following our own server rules, which we are allowed to have as long as they do not breach the license agreement. The fact that you think you can go onto another communities server and start telling them how they should run it, especially one of the largest in the EU (which states we know what we are doing), is arrogant and unbelievable. In this particular case, the admin in question was a junior admin and could only kick. Consider yourself lucky, if you had spoken to me like that then it might of been more than just a kick.

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1 minute ago, BabylonCome said:

Speaking as a [RIP] Clan leader (and not as a moderator) I am going to say the following:

 

Firstly we take any claims of admin abuse very seriously and all are members are made aware that when they wear our tags, they are representing our clan and any misuse or abuse of server rules/clan rules will result in members being removed from our clan.

 

With that being said, we have always had a strict server rule of "no locked squads" and while you cannot physically lock a squad within this particular game, we see "??? Only" as being a locked squad. However, even ourselves will sometimes politely ask non-members to leave a squad on a Friday night which is our infamous "RIP vs The World" evening of gaming to make room for clan members. The key word here is "politely"....

 

Having viewed your submitted evidence and listened to your "attitude" and your "I'm untouchable" stance, I fully back our admin on this occasion and see his actions as following our own server rules, which we are allowed to have as long as they do not breach the license agreement. The fact that you think you can go onto another communities server and start telling them how they should run it, especially one of the largest in the EU (which states we know what we are doing), is arrogant and unbelievable. In this particular case, the admin in question was a junior admin and could only kick. Consider yourself lucky, if you had spoken to me like that then it might of been more than just a kick.

 

About your personal "no locked squads" rule. It is bogus, and here is why:

The developers created a set of rules you agreed on. One rule is that any SL can kick any member of his quad for any reason.

This is rather extreme, yes, but it is the rule as of now.

 

You can't just accept the dev-rules and then create rules that over-rule or contradict these rules.

That would be like creating laws to over-rule a constitution of a sovereign state. That just doesn't work.

However, that is exactly what you guys did, and I guess you didn't put much thought into it.

 

What makes it worse is that you yourself break your own server rules for whatever reason.

Rules are rules and they have to be maintained and enforced - otherwise they are 'guidelines' and no one can be expected to stick by them, especially when they are arbitrarily enforced/not taken seriously.

 

Quote

The key word here is "politely"....

 

No, it isn't.

The keyword is "rules".

The rules don't say anything about being polite or not. and 'politeness' is very subjective anyways.

While I agree that, in any case, interactions should be on a base of politeness and respect, this has nothing to do with the actual rules. It is irrelevant to this case.

 

Quote

Having viewed your submitted evidence and listened to your "attitude" and your "I'm untouchable" stance, I fully back our admin on this occasion and see his actions as following our own server rules, which we are allowed to have as long as they do not breach the license agreement

 

Well I guess I addressed that one in advance... funny to see you even say they don't break them... when they so clearly do.

 

Quote

The fact that you think you can go onto another communities server and start telling them how they should run it, especially one of the largest in the EU (which states we know what we are doing), is arrogant and unbelievable.

 

Your server being among the "largest" doesn't mean a thing considering how few servers there are in total and while you put that out, and mention the "I am untouchable" attitude - you may not throw stones in a glass house, because that is what you're doing right now. At least it comes across like it.

 

And it is a shame he had to tell you guys how to run your server, even more so because he was right.

- Dev rules allow him to kick anyone for any reason.

- Your personal rule contradicts the dev-rule - and is therefor irrelevant.

- What he did was completely fine. How he did it, is another thing - but irrelevant to the rule and problem in question.

 

Also, I wish to address this.

You made it sound like he acted like an ass.

He did not. Not at all.

 

His voice and tone wasn't rude, condescending or aggressive at all. He sounded focused on the game, as expected from an SL and he simply pointed out the obvious which some guys ignored. When the admin didn't care and thought HE is untouchable "because admin durr!", he explained the rules.

 

No matter how you try to make this look, but whoever listens to the record and reads the transcription clearly sees that he wasn't the one doing anything wrong at all. Your admin failed - it happens, no big deal - but he did. You guys need to adjust your rules, they can not contradict the dev-rules.

 

Simple as that.

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3 hours ago, BabylonCome said:

Having viewed your submitted evidence and listened to your "attitude" and your "I'm untouchable" stance, I fully back our admin on this occasion and see his actions as following our own server rules, which we are allowed to have as long as they do not breach the license agreement. The fact that you think you can go onto another communities server and start telling them how they should run it, especially one of the largest in the EU (which states we know what we are doing), is arrogant and unbelievable. In this particular case, the admin in question was a junior admin and could only kick. Consider yourself lucky, if you had spoken to me like that then it might of been more than just a kick.

 

Soo, you start threatening people that are politely pointing out that they're not okay with your violations against the game server administration guidelines (which can result in the loss of the server license)? It doesn't matter how you interpet things (in reference to your statement about locked squads) on your server. Rules are rules. You do not stand above the rules.

 

Where's the difference between naming a Squad "[DDF] only" and kicking everyone that is non-DDF, and naming a Squad "Yolo Swag" and kicking everyone that doesn't fit into the Squad according to the Squadleader? Exactly, there is none, but you're trying to tell us that the first situation is different. The Squadleader can kick the persons he doesn't want in his Squad in both situations.

 

I'm taking part in this discussion now because I really don't want this admin behavior to become the new standard.

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All great and substantive replies. Thank you for keeping this discussion in point and polite.

 

Ssixs, I wasn't aware you weren't a rip member. I probably read something wrong. I am sorry for that.

 

Schoff426, great point. It's true that we play on their server so we should follow their rules. That said, maybe the admin in question could have been more polite. Also, the rule about locked squads is bogus because the server license rules overrule them.

 

Babyloncome, I am afraid we have to agree to disagree. Server license rules overrule personal server rules. You once accepted those rules so your admin should adhere to them. You imply you would have banned Funkmen for some time from the server. That's an insult to our clan and the Squad community as a whole. Being one of the bggest communities in Europe doesn't free you from the overall responsibilities and rules.

 

Lethargo, thanks for your replies. Couldn't have made those points better than you did. 

 

That said I don't want to ruin clan relations so may I suggest we don't make a bigger deal out of this than it is? I understand why Funkmen posted this but it may not have been the best idea to post it on the forum without first informing RIP. 

 

Jurrien

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2 minutes ago, carmikaze said:

I'm taking part in this discussion now because I  really don't want this admin behavior to become the new standard.

That is also my motivation, good pointing that out!

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25 minutes ago, jurrien said:

I understand why Funkmen posted this but it may not have been the best idea to post it on the forum without first informing RIP.

Very good point.

I guess he was pissed, it's natural. But we all should try to settle things on our own before running to higher authorities immediately.

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First off, I am not affiliated with any of the mentioned groups.

Guys... sometimes I really have to wonder... I know this is the internet. But do you also behave like this in real life?


Quite often a law (here: a rule) is not equivalent to justice.
From time immemorial, civilisations also rely on something like common sense, empathy, etiquette, etc...

 

 


Generally speaking, I wish everyone would take a step back when getting offended/pissed off.
Sleep over it.
Then reach out for a mature talk with a fresh mind. - No reason to put someone in a pillory.

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As the clan founder and main admin, this in only an initial response as not spoken to Dean yet and since I don't understand Dutch.

 

I will start of by saying there seems to be issues on both sides of this argument based on your translation.

 

From the point of view of our admin, I would say some of his actions/wording are wrong and I will be having words about that as we have rules that they should follow, which are above and beyond the OWI guidelines, then also due to the group does not get kicked for the actions of one and for not using a valid reason for kicking.

 

However, on saying that he is enforcing the rules of the game by ensuring that there is effectively "no locked squads" (a rule that has been around since the early days of BF and PR) to allow the game to be played by all as normally a max number of squads can be created (which I need to check on within Squad) and prevents full teamwork as may end up with squads of one or two people.

 

You point to the rule:
~ Squad leaders should be free to kick members of their squad for any reason they choose.
as the reason for kicking you, which if it was only this I would have a serious issue with our junior admin, however I would say you were kicked for ignoring server rules.
But this rule, is definetly one that should be up for discussion as it contradicts some of the other OWI rules (see below).

 

Specifically, as a response to this I will point to the rules below that I would say allow the "no locked squad rule":
~ Admins should make an effort to promote a culture of teamwork and communication through their actions on the server and through the creation of server rules which do likewise.
and
~ Admins should work to shape their server into a constructive environment for new players to learn in. Specifically, servers should encourage their community to welcome new players into squads alongside more experienced players, provided those new players listen and are willing to learn the game.

 

As by creating a "locked squad" you are preventing teamwork and providing a non constructive environment for players to learn.

 

Although if OWI wish, we will remove this rule which has always been posted and had no issues from them or any other players thus far in any game. This will allow squads of one or two players to be created and other people kicked from it and then if Squad has a Squad limit others not able to play the game in a "Squad" and prevent the ethos of teamwork. As BabylonCome has already stated we use on Friday nights when we are hosting [RIP] vs the World events, but again this is done politely and if they wish to stay and play with our squad they are allowed to help them learn.

 

From reading your own translation, you have immediately come across as aggressive to someone that donates to rent the server and provide a place for others to play and then cry wolf when you get a response you didn't like. If you had been polite, you may have received a different response. I wonder if you paid for a server and someone was aggressive to you, what would you do?

 

You also ask, "What actions should i take to prevent him banning the [DDF]clan/community?", a simple response to this one, you can't as he doesn't have the ability to ban people as he is only a junior admin.

 

Of course, what do we know about admining servers and providing a good gaming environment for players to play and learn for 10+ years with a current player roster of over 150 players that came to us becauseof our rules and admining on our servers (most of whom play squad).

 

Bear

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I totally agree with Bear. 

 

 

OWI haven't actually posted any rules. Its titled 'Guidelines'. They are extremely vague and down to interpretation.

At the end of the day as long as the server is not going against OWI and what they stand for there is no issue. 

 

 

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Thank you for your reply Bear. That's very clear. I may disagree with your server rules but I do respect that you pay for that server so you can set your rules. By stating that squads should be mixed you imply that all squad members should speak the same language (which often is English). That can be a problem for non-native speakers (although DDF has no issues playing in English). Our clan loves to play together in Dutch and we always see a huge improvement in performance(and thus fun factor) when we play in a 'locked' squad.

 

Your response about the guidelines is great. I see your point and I can agree with that.

 

I still think your junior admin was a bit rude, but may this be a lesson for us all. He is a junior admin after all.

 

I hope to play against you all once DDF signs up for the next squad league tournament :)!

 

Have a wonderful day,

Jurrien

 

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1 hour ago, SuperArmySoldiers said:

I totally agree with Bear. 

 

 

OWI haven't actually posted any rules. Its titled 'Guidelines'. They are extremely vague and down to interpretation.

At the end of the day as long as the server is not going against OWI and what they stand for there is no issue. 

 

 

 

And have you read the giant note right at the start of the guidelines thread?

 

Quote

The following guidelines are recommended for all in game admins in Squad, and specifically *must* be adhered to by game admins on licensed servers as a condition of holding a license.

 

 

Don't know about you, but that sounds like a rule to me.

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Here is where the licensing team stands. It seems this was just miscommunication. While we have the rule in place to prevent SL from being banned from the server for kicking an admin, it seems we should of added a bit more context to it.

 

While RIP has a no locked squads in place we feel clans should be able to play with their team mates. Since the No locked squads (which we don't have so more of a no restricted squads) was a rule, the SL should allow anyone into the squad. If a DDF mate wants to join, then a kick should be fine to allow room for that DDF member. While it seems the player was not kicked for kicking an admin out of the squad, but for violating the no locked squads policy, it should of been communicated as such.

 

OWI will be looking at rewording the statement about kicking anyone, so that it doesn't cause confusion for server rules like no locked squads. I see the founder has already addressed this issue and will speak to the admin about communication.

 

We consider this issue resolved.

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