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First of all I should explain the name of this topic. As we all know, crowdfunding system has a big influence on development process. A long time ago devs presented first iteration of this game for Kickstarter. It offered to player a big wasteland, a couple of guns and a lot of fun. After more than year of development devs have all gameplay systement at overhaul stage, cause they needed at least the most primitive prototypes of everything this game will have in future. Let be honest, nobody want to buy promises, OWI understand it, that is why even Pre-Alpha was a really entertaining and fun to play. Today, when OWI had a solid core of devteam, decent auditory and money, they can breath free and start to make Squad the way they really want it to look and feel. Animation system overhaul? Check. Deployment system overhaul? Check. UI overhaul? Check. Vehicles? Check. Did we forgot something, something valuable for shooter? I think yes, we forget about actually shooting.

 

Experience of some members of OWI let them make firefights as they should really be. Single fire, covers, effective distances, crouching and prone, all these aspects exist, devs have reached their goal. But they did it the same way, they simulate movement of human. Is human possible to get over the thigh-high fence? Yes, it is possible in reality, it is possible in game as well. But nobody like the idea that you actually should jump over this fence, for months people were asking for vaulting, collisions and other things, nobody was really surprised when devs started to talk about animation overhaul. The goal has been reached already, players can run, get over obstacles, crouch etc, but nobody likes how this goal was reached. You don't need to hire advisors to reach out how to vault and walk :)

 

As I said, realistic combat experience was almost reached too. But like other systems, for this moment we can see, how poor look these methods, which were used to reach this goal. It is normal for me to think that current shooting system is placeholder too, like animation and deployments, but it is not so obvious for average players, who are not as experienced as devs or not the biggest, but still major part of community. But I'm worried, cause devs are going to tune and balance this primitive system and haven't mentioned this system will have to be reworked. I'm sure that shooting is the most critical part of every shooter, doesn't matter what this shooter promote, teamwork or deathmatches with railgun. Squad promotes realistic combat experience, not simulates it, but current mechanics is too clunky and unattractive even for arcade shooter. Honestly, it is unrealistic like BF/CoD and uncomfortable like Arma in the same time.

 

Some people say current system is challenging and still playable, say that people who complains about it just don't want to learn. It is not true, I can shoot accurately, kill people and have k/d more than 1, although I mostly play as Medic and heal and revive people 90% of my time. I do it not because I like to play as Medic or nobody else want to play as Medic. I just want to play this game, but I absolutely dislike to shoot in this game. That is why I made this suggestion. I love this game, love almost all aspects of Squad and I trust devs. But shooting system totally pisses me off. I'm not a programmer, but I think that information collected by myself and other people could be useful and may fin its place in the game core. I copied the main part of suggestion from another topic not to annoy people, but cause it is me who should show the suggestion to devs, not the devs should lurk for it on forums. I tried to wrote it as clearly as possible and I hope I will get clear and deep answers. Thanks.

 

DISCLAIMER: Guys, please, stop repeating devs statements. We all agree that firefights in Squad should be slow paced like in reality with range of effective fire decreased due to map scale and poor monitor resolutions. Most of you are not even try to read what people suggest, you already have answers like "it is not milsim" and "gameplay over realism". Please, stop, this type of answers is worthless. We all know we play the game. But we don't want this game to be as clunky, weird and uncomfortable as milsim. We want more convinient, more smooth shooting mechanics, considering many factors which can affect effectiveness of shooting. If you think that overblown recoil and sway are the best and most accurate mechanics - sorry, it is your problem. In that case, please, stop to prevent us from suggesting these things, because you just don't understand what we are talking about. I think devs choose the wrong way to reach right goal, current solution looks too primitive, although, it may be well tuned and balanced. I know, that current devs solution may be placeholder, cause a lot of other mechanics which can affect shooting are not implemented yet.

 

About behaviour of firearms

 

Lets start with accuracy, because it is the main reason why people misunderstand each other when talking about weapon mechanics. Ability to hit the target consists of two aspects, accuracy of shooter and inherent accuracy (thanks @trotskygrad). The main difference between PR and Squad is that in PR so called deviation is simulating exactly grouping, this cone of spreading starts from the muzzle (center of camera actually). Of course, you can control the angle the of cone by changing stance, ADS and other measures, but projectile trajectory staying unpredictable within this cone. Squad mechanics are far more advanced, deviation for firearms was removed (Squad is not benchrest), instead of exaggerated grouping we have sway, which is supposed to simulate player's bahaviour, while technical parameters of gun stand unchanged. As I said, it is the big step to the directory of realistic representation of shooting. This parameter is the back end of the shooting and not the main question of this discussion.

 

Next things affecting weapon handling are gun operation and construction. In our case (AR-15 and AK), it consists of two major aspects: a) angle and difference between axis of recoil impulse and stock, b) impulse of moving parts (light bolt carrier group of AR-15 and heavy bolt carrier group with piston stock of AK). AK-74 without muzzle has significantly higher recoil than AR-15 without muzzle. This aspect could be represented by these "curves" of recoil patterns, mentioned by Sgt.Ross. Please, notice, I am talking about single fire, but even in full auto higher rate of fire of AR-15 doesn't make it much less controlable then AK-74. Additionally, we should not forget about returning of the bolt carrier group, which has its own impulse that drags your gun forward. "Reset" of muzzle caused by overcompensating impulse of the body, because it is impossible for our reflexes to set perfect time and force values to compensate every force put to us.

 

About weapon handling

 

And finally, it is time to talk about the most unreliable, most unstable component of shooting mechanism: about shooter. Devs already have focused on it, they added sway instead of deviation, making accuracy more dependable on shooter. Unfortunately, it is the only one parameter which was radically changed, other aspects were replaced with exaggerated recoil due to the next goals: slower firefights and decreased distances of engagement. How recoil is connected with speed of gameplay? Higher recoil takes more time to return barrel on its place, on bigger distances player additionaly may lose small target, because it can be overlayed by parts of gun model. It becomes even worse due to hard-lock of system head+gun. While ADS our camera literally sticks on stock because of cheek welding. It is not really accurate, usually when you are shooting, movement of the sights doesn't really affect the position of your head. In Squad camera is moving with gun and that is another reason why Squad shooting feels and looks clunky.

 

Now about recoil and muzzle rise or muzzle flip (thanks @VarenykySupreme). Yeah, some guys mentioned that to control recoil in Squad you need to drag gun down, like you are doing it in real life. Yeah, you actually doing that, but YOU DON'T COMPENSATE the main impulse of recoil! You compensate main impulse with your body, cause gun forces you to move back, not up. It looks like you need to compensate vertical impulse, because lower part of your body is fixed on the ground and recoil impulse is coming perpendicular to your upper part of body. You need to compensate recoil not by dragging gun down, but forming a fixed stance and leaning forward. It as another aspect Squad is ignoring: you always have a right stance. Of course, there is penalty while you changing position, but it doesn't cover all situations. I'll write about it later. What does your weak hand do? While shooting It compensates the torque of your body, caused by difference between point where recoil vector is put to and mass centre of your body.

 

Next aspect: focus. Yeah, it is all right about breathing, heartbeating and imitation of real "focusing". But in Squad you have unlimited focus. Why? Because the best moment to shoot is the time during 3-5 seconds after you have calmed your hands and gun. The gun is heavy, every next second make it harder and harder to keep aim, hands starting to tremble. You just can't stand for 10 seconds, then "focusing" for 5 seconds, then wait until focus will be regenerated and focus again. You just can't hold a 3-4 kilos rifle and hit targets with the same accuracy for minutes. And after every shoot you need to put force to compensate recoil, so it is additional consumption of your "handling" stamina. Current sway is like tides, predictable and smooth, it is not hard to shoot with it, but it looks and acts unrealistically.

 

About hip fire. There is BIG DIFFERENCE between hip fire and non-ADS. Just look in game, what do you do when you press RMB? Your camera lean to the stock. You already handle the gun ready for shooting, you just don't look through the sights. That means you can't aim propery, and this is the only major difference between ADS and non-ADS. Yes, as MotherDear mentioned, there may be some recoil penalty, because your non-ADS stance is more relaxed as when ADS (current animations don't show it), but that penalty is nothing compared to inability to control the direction of your barrel. ADZ will provide it. There is no hip fire in game, because player ALWAYS keep rifle in pre-shooting position while standing.

 

The next problem I think can't be resolved so easily until new animation system will be implemented. It is about player's body position while shooting. The point is that you can't make 360 and shoot with the same accuracy, but not only while you are actually turning. Even if you stop turn your torso without changing position of your feet, your spine is still curved and you can't compensate recoil with full effectiveness. You need to change your stance even if you haven't totally turned around to keep the decent level of accuracy.

 

Horizontal recoil. Yes, it can be compensated by muzzle brakes, but it is still exists, because of different positions of hands, impulse of rotating bolt and other.

All these things affects shooter's ability to shoot fast and accurately enough to hit the targets on the distances above 100 meters, like the devs want it to be played.

What I suggest:

 

1) Reduce sway, recoil and make it closer to the real values

 

2) Tie camera position off sights while shooting and desyncronize patterns of sway for gun and head. Second one could be really low and almost hidde, but it will compensate the reducing oof whole recoil.

 

3) Add progressive sway/tremor while ADS which is slightly increasing after every shoot. It will slow the temp of firefight and will encourage people to change stance to prone or crouch.

 

4) Change the pattern of sway. Reduce sway, but add micro tremor to make it more unpredictable, but still effective for engagements up to 150 meters, progressing of tremor will prevent player from standing shooting on long distances (see 3)

 

5) Add slight recoil penalty for turning on wide angles, when new animation will be implemented and player will be able to turn his torso withough changing position of feet. It will prevent players from fast 360 shooting. Or add non-cosmetic misalignment and hard cap on turn rate.

 

6) Add Aim Dead Zone. It is the most vital part of shooting, it will prevent non-ADS shooting even more effective than 2x recoil, it will help to make sway while ADS and will work perfectly with 5.

 

7) Add little horizontal recoil. It will help to prevent people going full-auto on long distances.

 

Why do I suggest it? Because shooting is the MAIN mechanics of this game, it is the main way for player to interact with game world, because Squad is shooter first. It will help to keep the combat on the level devs desired it to be, but will make shooting more smooth, realistic and skill depended. Comments and feedback appreciated, want to hear opinion of experienced shooters and, hopefully, devs. I'm not sure I listed all of the things which can help, feel free to add your opinion and experience to my suggestion.

 

UPD: Added feedback from comments.

Edited by ZiGreen

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hasnt exactly something to do with the OT but:

guys dont forget this is a game and should make fun... not saying your points are invalid... but ultra realismn and all similar stuff mostly reduces fun and i think thats the most important thing of a game

Edited by S0NNy

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17 minutes ago, ZiGreen said:

. It will help to keep the combat on the level devs desired it to be,

You raise some good points which are supported very well. But I'll just quote this sentence here for discussion. Partly because the majority of your post is opinion, and that I can't debate. But this one let's discuss.

What is the desired gun play? Because I see some good arguments here about the gun play that the devs have created. But if they made it, surely that's the direction they desire it to be?

Just struggling to understand what you're trying to achieve with your suggestions, other than pushing the game towards a preferred mechanic. Which is absolutely fine. We are all here to help create a better game, and our feedback and our opinions can help to achieve that. But you stated that this is how the devs want it to be. But, is it?

The devs play the game, so they know how the mechanics are playing out. Is it finished or perfect? Probably not. And that's where posts like this come into the equation, as the team look at possible additions and will seek other view points to help modify. And as you correctly stated, the devs are now creating the game they want.

 

Gun mechanics good or bad? I'm not an experienced military person, but I am part of the core community of Squad. And from what I know of OWI wanting to achieve with Squad. I would say the mechanics are heading in the right direction.

 

Just my two pennies

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I think it's just fine. Change too much and it just becomes a pain ... It's a video game after all.. don't' wanna suck the fun out of it entirely . I like the recent changes to sway, especially standing up... but anything more would just make it a pain

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Just now, BLITZA said:

 

What is the desired gun play? Because I see some good arguments here about the gun play that the devs have created. But if they made it, surely that's the direction they desire it to be?

Just struggling to understand what you're trying to achieve with your suggestions, other than pushing the game towards a preferred mechanic. Which is absolutely fine. We are all here to help create a better game, and our feedback and our opinions can help to achieve that. But you stated that this is how the devs want it to be. But, is it?

Desired gun play is the principles devs declared, when answered our questions and complaining. I tried to analize it and make realism mechanics fitting these principles, i.e. gameplay > realism, but I tried to combine different mechanics thus it will be hard for average player to notice unrealistic and hard restrictions, make it more natural.

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Just for reference, jrwebster/Odin (OWI Dev) posted this yesterday in a thread, and it crosses over into this discussion, about the devs general aim for Squad.

 

5 hours ago, jrwebster said:

Developing a game isn't as easy as simply not pandering to one demographic or another. If you like this game so much, there has to be a certain amount of give and take. How else do we make a successful game if not for having a large enough audience to play and enjoy the game; this not only funds the project and allows us to continue working, but also brings in larger groups of people to enable a wider selection of servers and communities to take part in the game.

As I said, there has to be a certain amount of give and take. From my understanding we are not taking this game to the extremes that CoD and BF3/4 have gone into the "arcade" style of gaming, nor are we staying hardcore mil-sim. We are trying to find the balance between the two that will allow a large group of people to play, enjoy, and help the game to prosper.................. There is a middle ground here that we can find and fine tune as the game progresses.

As a developer, I want this game to be enjoyed by as many people as possible. The fact that people enjoy this game and continue to support this project that we are working so hard on is great motivation for me and what I hope we are all striving for, which is to make this game continually grow and enjoyable for everyone.

Just for people to consider.

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Just now, BLITZA said:

Just for reference, jrwebster/Odin (OWI Dev) posted this yesterday in a thread, and it crosses over into this discussion, about the devs general aim for Squad.

 

Just for people to consider.

I agree with him, moreover, it is one more reason to rework shooting. I read hundreds (literally) of reviews from people, who try this game and was dissapointed by uncomfortable shooting. Something wrong with mechanics, if you need to explain, why it should work this way. If you play the game and appearance of artificial restrictions totally ruin the immersion, these restrictions should be hidden. The point of my suggestion is to make these restrictions less visible, replace current mechanics with more convenient, to make shooting actually more comfortable, but still challenging. You know, an iron fist in velvet glow.

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9 minutes ago, ZiGreen said:

I read hundreds (literally) of reviews from people, who try this game and was dissapointed by uncomfortable shooting.

I am impressed. Where do you find that many? Can you post a few links as reference? - Thanks.

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Do you call me experience shooter, if I make 15-30 frags per round as SL? Or you need to hear only experience shooters IRL?

I just playing 2-3 hours per evening and this is my opinion: most of problems are ping and netcode, recoil is fine for AK74 - this is my regular weapon.

But  TRUE issue, which you are trying to solve - is a rare hits in target. Seems like equal things: recoil+accuracy and chance of hit target. But to solve second issue there is enough one solution: give to bodies realistic injures in game. You burst can hit once in target, but it provide you to repeat your hit and finally kill your enemy. I mean, that if you are injured - tremor of your arms is so high, that you couldn't keep your gun stable and your fire is blind spraying.

Edited by BrossParavoss

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Just now, BrossParavoss said:

Dou you call me experience shooter, if I make 15-30 frags per round as SL? Or you need to hear only experience shooters IRL?

I just playing 2-3 hours per evening and this is my opinion: most of problems are ping and netcode, recoil is fine for AK74 - this is my regular weapon.

I want to hear experienced shooters IRL, actually their feedback about details of my suggestion. Since my suggestions are based on realistic mechanics, I guess that people who are expierenced both in reality and Squad would give the best answers.

I never said that it is impossible or too hard to kill people in Squad. I said that it is hard in wrong way. Yes, you are still able to hit targets on 80-120 meters with single shots while standing. It is really hard to shoot in full auto beyond 30 meters. I want to keep these principles, but make it less artificial, include more little aspects of shooting, to make shooting more smooth and natural, instead of using only two generalized mechanics.

Recoil of AK-74 is fine compared to other guns. I am not talking about game balance at the moment. Even bears can learn to drive a bicycle, I'm not surprised that every player gets used to Squad mechanics and become able to kill other players. I just don't like what actually players getting used to.

Edited by ZiGreen

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Ping and Netcode arent a problem.

I think i could call myself an avid ACOG-Shooter playing roughly 40h of my 100h only as Marksmen or SL with ACOG.

In V4 i was able to place a headshot with 1 or 2 shots on a normal moving target on 400m, or on a steady target in 600m, and on lucky days a bit more.
Because i know how to handle a shot, due my experience in the army and as privat shooter.

In V5 it has become nearly impossible to hit a target twice in prone, due to massive recoil even after focusing to the newer 5sec-Focus-Method in ADS (before it was 3 seconds).
The ACOG behaves like loaded with a cal.50 and after i got spotted, the enemy starts to pinpoint me with dead accuracy on ironsights.

It feels like i never knew how to handle a weapon or even played 100h in Squad.
 

Edited by Metapher

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4 minutes ago, Metapher said:

Ping and Netcode arent a problem.

I think i could call myself an avid AGOC-Shooter playing roughly 40h of my 100h only as Marksmen or SL with AGOC.

In V4 i was able to place a headshot with 1 or 2 shots on a normal moving target on 400m, or on a steady target in 600m, and on lucky days a bit more.

In V5 it has become nearly impossible to hit a target twice in prone, due to massive recoil even after focusing to the newer 5sec-Focus-Method in ADS (before it was 3 seconds).
The ACOG behaves like loaded with a cal.50 and after i got spotted, the enemy starts to pinpoint me with dead accuracy on ironsights.

It feels like i never knew how to handle a weapon or even played 100h in Squad.
 

Gods bless DEVs! Finally "snipers" couldn't be so unbalance. )))

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9 minutes ago, BrossParavoss said:

Gods bless DEVs! Finally "snipers" couldn't be so unbalance. )))

I wouldnt call it unbalanced.

I just cant regroup my shots, because the weapon wont let itself handle like a real gun with a shortdot/4x-mag.

If you shoot such a weapon it will move up, thats the nature of the shot, iam ok with that.

But after the cycle completes, usually the weapon falls back at atleast 90% of the old position, due its weight, if you want to place another shot.

At the moment it feels really clunky as @ZiGreen discribed it.
I have to move the weapon down myself, but it wont respond so fast, as iam used to it, or any military person who should be trained with weaponhandling.
The whole shotcycle feels like a cramp or maybe in another literal way, like the character iam controlling just got suprised by the shot, like a girl on her first day at daddies shooting range,
and keeps cramping the gun up in the sky still in shock.

edit: Grammar Nazi strikes again

Edited by Metapher

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I didn't read all of that because I have a short attention span, I probably could of read half of it but I saw too many words and kinda freaked out. I like how the shooting is now.

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Maybe people are uncomfortable due to the amount of people who full auto most of the time.

Literally, semi auto mechanic is perfect and accurate..and I would never recommend anyone play using full auto.. it's only good in samurai (cod) map.

Quick head shots and deadly accurate, compared to some guy going full fam (auto) on you and missing 90% of the shots.

 

 

 

 

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Just now, Irish_rangers said:

Maybe people are uncomfortable due to the amount of people who full auto most of the time.

Literally, semi auto mechanic is perfect and accurate..and I would never recommend anyone play using full auto.. it's only good in samurai (cod) map.

Quick head shots and deadly accurate, compared to some guy going full fam (auto) on you and missing 90% of the shots.

 

 

 

 

Full auto was being uneffective since EA release. It is obvious that single shots are more effective than full auto, because it is legit for reality too. For this moment we have weird situation: full auto is as almost uneffective in Squad as in reality, but the reason of this uneffectiveness has nothing to do with reality.

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3 hours ago, S0NNy said:

hasnt exactly something to do with the OT but:

guys dont forget this is a game and should make fun... not saying your points are invalid... but ultra realismn and all similar stuff mostly reduces fun and i think thats the most important thing of a game

literally read the OP before opening your mouth.

 

I agree on all points except " Add slight recoil penalty for turning on wide angles, when new animation will be implemented and player will be able to turn his torso withough changing position of feet. It will prevent players from fast 360 shooting."

IMO this is better achieved by increasing ironsight misalignment the more you turn (even CoD does this to a degree but it's simply cosmetic effect), and adding a hard cap on the turn rate of someone... this isn't an action movie

Edited by trotskygrad

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19 minutes ago, ZiGreen said:

Full auto was being uneffective since EA release. It is obvious that single shots are more effective than full auto, because it is legit for reality too. For this moment we have weird situation: full auto is as almost uneffective in Squad as in reality, but the reason of this uneffectiveness has nothing to do with reality.

I use full auto in most conditions) Don't save ammo and be closer to enemy. Use this cause I don't trust my computer, connection and SQUAD's tickrate. I found this gaming style as more effective.

Edited by BrossParavoss

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Just now, BrossParavoss said:

I use full auto in most conditions) Don't save ammo and be closer to enemy. Use this cause I don't trust my computer, connection and SQUAD's tickrate. I found this game as more effective.

In that case devs methods don't work as they are supposed to.

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2 hours ago, Irish_rangers said:

I think it's just fine. Change too much and it just becomes a pain ... It's a video game after all.. don't' wanna suck the fun out of it entirely . I like the recent changes to sway, especially standing up... but anything more would just make it a pain

he's not really suggesting more sway, only in certain situations. It has to do more with the realism and ease of getting followup shots right. 

(lol people complain about drop-shotting now...)

https://www.reddit.com/r/joinsquad/comments/4bq4w9/so_what_are_the_devs_position_on_drop_shotting/

that was a thing in PR: would not like for it to return

 

Edited by trotskygrad

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15 minutes ago, trotskygrad said:

he's not really suggesting more sway, only in certain situations. It has to do more with the realism and ease of getting followup shots right. 

(lol people complain about drop-shotting now...)

https://www.reddit.com/r/joinsquad/comments/4bq4w9/so_what_are_the_devs_position_on_drop_shotting/

that was a thing in PR: would not like for it to return

 

Whats the term "drop-shotting"?

If i see it correctly you mean the part 1:00 to 1:08, where he just goes prone still shooting fullauto?

If so, i thought its possible in SQD too.
But thats a animation problem (as mentioned in reddit) and has nothing to do with the rest of the topic.

Edited by Metapher

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3 hours ago, S0NNy said:

hasnt exactly something to do with the OT but:

guys dont forget this is a game and should make fun... not saying your points are invalid... but ultra realismn and all similar stuff mostly reduces fun and i think thats the most important thing of a game

Except that fun is subjective.. so please stop using it as an argument. Because it's not.

If done right(imo the way RO2 does it) I can always do with some aiming deadzone.

Edited by Chompster

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7 minutes ago, Metapher said:

 

Whats the term "drop-shotting"?

If i see it correctly you mean the part 1:00 to 1:08, where he just goes prone still shooting fullauto?

If so, i thought its possible in SQD too.
But thats a animation problem (as mentioned in reddit) and has nothing to do with the rest of the topic.

well if the prone bonuses are conferred instantly, then this will become a more and more common tactic at medium ranges.

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