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How to suppress?

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22 minutes ago, Django said:

Who says that you can't suppress using single fire? The point of suppression is to keep the enemy pinned so that an assaulting fire team can outmaneuver.

At long distances, suppression with very short bursts and even single fire is absolutely acceptable / effective.

I remember playing the other night where there was a squad of baddies coming down the hill to district center from Hill 15. I was on the opposite eastern hill and was pinning them down behind the rocks with accurate single fire suppression. Every time some one made a run for it, or peeped out their head, I sent a few well aimed shots their way and they would either freak and run around like idiots or hunker down behind the rocks. All the while the rest of my squad was taking District Center.

I would like to argue that suppression is not very effective right now, even in single shot mode. Either you shoot to kill, or you dont. If you try something in the middle, like suppressing then you just end up making yourself an easy target.

I often find that when i deliberately attempt to suppress i just end up "aggroing" the enemy and they start moving towards me to kill me. Its as if all i can accomplish is throwing small pebbles at them that merely serve to distract.

Edited by Allan

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On 3/14/2016 at 2:18 PM, Allan said:

I often find that when i deliberately attempt to suppress i just end up "aggroing" the enemy and they start moving towards me to kill me. Its as if all i can accomplish is throwing small pebbles at them that merely serve to distract.

I understand your point. IMO, the problem with suppression in a game is like many people have said before. Without the fear of death, players will never experience true suppression. Now... plenty of things can be done about this but it would probably detract from the flavor of game play the developers are intending. On example would be to make it one life per round, ala America's Army. In that situation you better believe your gonna keep your head when rounds come your way.

As far as "aggroing" the enemy goes, I think that is perfectly within the realm of reality. The key is you must be in a position supported by your squad. You are not a lone actor, left alone to suppress while the rest of the squad does their thing. Ideally you have an assistant gunner, possibly a medic, who supports you by calling out targets and covering your back. You should also be positioned in a way that the rest of your squad is able to react to the response team sent out to "take care of that machine gunner". Another useful tip is to switch up positions. Once they seem to zero in on you, just move to another location. If they are assaulting you, change vantage points to take advantage of their route of approach.

Obviously the tactics I'm talking about here require that you have a squad that actually cares about you and is willing to work as a team. Being a sneaky mother fucker is the best way to play MG otherwise. You accomplish this by laying down a burst of suppression and when the enemy reacts (by taking cover, changing route, etc.) you duck down and change positions.

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 If you fire first and the enemy is still able to accurately shoot back the suppression is lacking. 

There is no suppression in my opinion.

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27 minutes ago, Willertz said:

 If you fire first and the enemy is still able to accurately shoot back the suppression is lacking. 

It only means that you should learn to shoot. Skilled and cold-blooded shooters can measure the threat.

Suppression is not the way to make enemy feeling headache. Suppression fire is supposed to block enemy's ability to take the most comfortable position for shooting and observation. If enemy is still able to take this position - just kill him!

Squad is not turn-based game, why enemy should suffer from arcadey effects affecting their ability to shoot back, if he knows that you are just trying to achieve that effect, not actually kill him or force to leave his position by bullets?

If you can't suppress (read: place bullets as near his ass as possible, the best option is actually in his ass) in full auto, suppress by single shots. Suppression is not the way to fire, it is the goal.

The majority of players differentiate suppressed and killed enemies, like they are absolutely different and equally valuable stages. No, no, hell NO, there is only one important thing about enemies: they should be neutralized! The best option is to kill enemy, try to kill enemy every time you engaging. If you didn't succeed at killing, the enemy will be suppressed, temporary neutralized. Only deadly fire can suppress. I met enough players who thinks that worthless bulletswarm around me makes my pants wet. I killed them, because they can't kill me and that is right.

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4 hours ago, ZiGreen said:

Only deadly fire can suppress. I met enough players who thinks that worthless bulletswarm around me makes my pants wet. I killed them, because they can't kill me and that is right.

I don't think you understand suppression.. Every fire is deadly. A bullet landing 20 meters away from me could have killed me.. You don't think you would have been scared by that if it happened all of a sudden. Project reality did it right. This game not so much.

 

Aiming and shooting directly at him should give enough suppression to make it almost impossible to respond with accurate shots. It's not. It's super easy to shoot back. No fear effect at all.

Edited by Willertz
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Just now, Willertz said:

I don't think you understand suppression.. Every fire is deadly. A bullet landing 20 meters away from me could have killed me.. You don't think you would have been scared by that if it happened all of a sudden. Project reality did it right. This game not so much.

 

Aiming and shooting directly at him should give enough suppression to make it almost impossible to respond with accurate shots. It's not. It's super easy to shoot back. No fear effect at all.

How do you want to make it impossible?

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Just now, ZiGreen said:

How do you want to make it impossible?

Well almost. Project reality suppression. Large sound effects and all that blur och darkness. Some hate it. Some love it. 

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Just now, Willertz said:

Well almost. Project reality suppression. Large sound effects and all that blur och darkness. Some hate it. Some love it. 

And THAT makes you scared? That prevents you from shooting back?

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7 minutes ago, ZiGreen said:

And THAT makes you scared? That prevents you from shooting back?

Sometimes I have actually jumped a little yes x)..It gives me stress as well but of course you can fire back.. but you wont be able to see shat. It's better to take cover than to fire back guessing where it's coming from. In squad I just fire back no problem.

Edited by Willertz

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Just now, Willertz said:

Sometimes I have actually jumped a little yes x)..It gives me stress as well but of course you can fire back.. but you wont be able to see shat. It's better to take cover than to fire back guessing where it's coming from. In squad I just fire back no problem.

That is what I am talking about. Suppression effect in Squad like big pulsing tip on your screen: "YOUR SOLDIER IS SCARED!!! TAKE COVER TO CHANGE YOUR UNDERWEAR!!!". Suppressing shooter doesn't try to show enemy that he has better position and conditions for shooting, he just tries to trigger that effect, doesn't matter how effective his fire in fact. You actually scared not by fire, you don't try to avoid bullets, you try to avoid blurred screen.

It is normal to shoot back. If you succeed and killed the enemy, it means that your shooting skills are better and his fire wasn't effective. In other hand, if his conditions and aim are better, he will kill you and it will be even better for him than just to suppress you.

With PR system player doesn't have choice, he just forced to lose due to reduced aiming ability. This system doesn't allow to measure the threat and react properly.

Edited by ZiGreen

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29 minutes ago, ZiGreen said:
Edited by MultiSquid
I have no ide why it's not letting me to edit my post or remove quotes from it, dammit

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31 minutes ago, ZiGreen said:

With PR system player doesn't have choice, he just forced to lose due to reduced aiming ability. This system doesn't allow to measure the threat and react properly.

I think that in fact that's just what it does. Unless you don't work with your squad so you are able to provide fire superiority you should have to fall back or stay in cover until help arrives. 

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44 minutes ago, ZiGreen said:
44 minutes ago, ZiGreen said:

That is what I am talking about. Suppression effect in Squad like big pulsing tip on your screen: "YOUR SOLDIER IS SCARED!!! TAKE COVER TO CHANGE YOUR UNDERWEAR!!!". Suppressing shooter doesn't try to show enemy that he has better position and conditions for shooting, he just tries to trigger that effect, doesn't matter how effective his fire in fact. You actually scared not by fire, you don't try to avoid bullets, you try to avoid blurred screen.

It is normal to shoot back. If you succeed and killed the enemy, it means that your shooting skills are better and his fire wasn't effective. In other hand, if his conditions and aim are better, he will kill you and it will be even better for him than just to suppress you.

With PR system player doesn't have choice, he just forced to lose due to reduced aiming ability. This system doesn't allow to measure the threat and react properly.

 

You just explained why the suppression worked in PR and doesn't work in Squad. Nobody is afraid of the bullets landing next to him, because these have no effect whatsoever on the effectivity of his own returned fire, so they rather shoot back. Also, I don't think it's normal to just start shooting back, damn, if a bullet landed next to any one of us I bet the first thing we would do is to duck behind some kind of solid cover, and that's exactly what the suppression effect is supposed to make you do in a videogame, make it hard for you to return fire effectively while compelling you to get the hell down. It's not about shooting skills in this situation, if an enemy started shooting at you first it's probably fair that you should be at a disadvantage, not just turn around and shoot back at him.

For me personally, PR got the suppression right. It must be extremely hard to fire back while there is machine gun fire missing you by centimeters.

Edited by MultiSquid

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2 minutes ago, ZiGreen said:

Why don't you kill enemy, if you shoot first?

You are welcome to open your own thread about why people don't kill every enemy they shoot at first, but we are discussing suppression here.

Edited by MultiSquid

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Just now, MultiSquid said:

You are welcome to open your own thread about why people don't kill every enemy they shoot at first, but here we're discussing suppression.

No. It is thread about blurring the screen of mor skilled opponent. If player under suppression fire has enough time to turn back, find the shooter, measure threat, aim and kill the "suppressor", something wrong with this "suppressor", not with the guy who is not afraid of bullets.

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2 minutes ago, ZiGreen said:

No. It is thread about blurring the screen of mor skilled opponent. If player under suppression fire has enough time to turn back, find the shooter, measure threat, aim and kill the "suppressor", something wrong with this "suppressor", not with the guy who is not afraid of bullets.

We are both just repeating out opinions at the moment, there is nothing to be gained from this. Not to mention your last comment was just a provocation, implying my incompetence and it didn't really deserve any answer other than what I gave you.

Have a nice day.

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Just try next time actually hit the enemy, not cast "blurred vision" on him, and you will see that people who don't want to see the respawn menu most likely gonna be suppressed.

Best wishes.

Edited by ZiGreen

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30 minutes ago, ZiGreen said:

Just try next time actually hit the enemy, not cast "blurred vision" on him, and you will see that people who don't want to see the respawn menu most likely gonna be suppressed.

Best wishes.

That doesn't make any sense what so ever. That's what I'm doing. But there is something called random deviation in this game. Since that's a thing. Having the opponent shooting back at ya and killing you instantly with a scoped rifle feels like bad game design. 

 

But whatever.. let's just agree to disagree. 

Edited by Willertz

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Just now, Willertz said:

That doesn't make any sense what so ever. That's what I'm doing. But there is something called random deviation in this game. Since that's a thing. Having the opponent shooting back at ya and killing you instantly with a scoped rifle feels like bad game design. 

 

But whatever.. let's just agree to disagree. 

There is no deviation in game, only weapon sway, which is pretty easy to control. Don't engage enemy on distances, where he can outperform you due to optics.

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2 minutes ago, ZiGreen said:

There is no deviation in game, only weapon sway, which is pretty easy to control. Don't engage enemy on distances, where he can outperform you due to optics.

imo suppression will work better when hit penalties are increased, as the player has more incentive to seek cover immediately.

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Just now, trotskygrad said:

imo suppression will work better when hit penalties are increased, as the player has more incentive to seek cover immediately.

I think now I can explain my position better: suppression should depend only on effectiveness of fire, without additional mechanics and effects. Player not seeking for cover will be killed, cause you will suppress only if you have an advantage in aim and position. Additional effects and penalties will encourage people just shoot in the direction of enemy, relying on artificial penalty for supressed enemies.

Edited by ZiGreen

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53 minutes ago, ZiGreen said:

I think now I can explain my position better: suppression should depend only on effectiveness of fire, without additional mechanics and effects. Player not seeking for cover will be killed, cause you will suppress only if you have an advantage in aim and position. .

Sounds like counter strike. 

Edited by Willertz

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58 minutes ago, Willertz said:

Sounds like counter strike. 

Lack of hitmarkers sounds like CS too?

I agree that player will never be really afraid of virtual death, suppressing should induce some sound and video effects, but player still should be able to concentrate, calm and shoot back effectively. No sight blurring, no sway increasing.

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