ShaunOfCathay

On the overdone genre "World War Two"

207 posts in this topic

I personally used to be for WWII shooters making a comeback (I adored MoH:Frontlines and CoDs back in those days). When I played RS/RO2, I felt amazed by how great the game was, and always thought it'll be great to see it reimagined on current graphics. Insurgency's DoI ruined it for me. To keep their doctrine of "automatic>bolt", they compromised on gameplay, giving all riflemen G43s and even BARs.

I was hoping for a revival of the genre that involved realism and teamplay, and hence I think SQUAD will be an amazing base to build this mod on. Afterall, RO2/RS' squad system left a lot to be desired.

Days of War and Battalion: 1944. Pffft, these are fast-paced WWII that are adventuring into their own niche market. I just worry that with such similar products it might be their downfall, by splitting a market that's already small.

And yes, I agree. The Western Front and Eastern Front are way too over-represented. I'd love to see the Finnish-Russo war, the Sino-Japanese war (like you said), the North African Campaign (again, like you said) or the Pacific Theatre, which is also starting to get saturated. But add the British instead of the Americans, and heck even Canadians and Italians and I'm all yours. Heroes of the West (RS) and Singapore (RS) are coming out soon with British content, and I feel that they'll be a massive step in revitalising an old dog, or at least keep its spirit up.

Ofcourse, the assets will be an ass to obtain, but I'll love to see such a mod grow in content, year-on-year, such that we'll be playing even when we're old. PR has done that, and it's proof that mods can live.

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http://i.imgur.com/8BbpEcD.gifv

I feel like (apart from FH2 and RO1, which are kinda dead) there has been no proper large-scale, combined arms implementation of WW2.
All the other games have the same small maps with confined towns, complexes and forests over and over again.

For me personally, WW2 has great appeal, but the products on the market are not convincing in my opinion. From super-flashy Company of Heroes 2 to non-teamwork RO2, all that is left is unfinished PR:WW2.

Red-Orchestra-Ostfront-41-45-Win-Mac-Lin

(RO: Ostfront '41-45)

 

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You mean there is battles in WW2 besides Normandy, Iwo Jima and Stalingrad?

 

In all seriousness though. The WW2 craze is dead and gone, it's all boring and contrived now..

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I feel your pain OP, I'd be happy to never see Carentan again unless I'm actually there sitting in a cafe. I'm curious to see if those Rng COD2/DOD clones will become popular, they have zero appeal to me.

I do prefer WW2 shooters, I like the history and weapons, but I'd welcome a move into lesser known theaters and battles.

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6 hours ago, Nate said:

http://i.imgur.com/8BbpEcD.gifv

I feel like (apart from FH2 and RO1, which are kinda dead) there has been no proper large-scale, combined arms implementation of WW2.
All the other games have the same small maps with confined towns, complexes and forests over and over again.

For me personally, WW2 has great appeal, but the products on the market are not convincing in my opinion. From super-flashy Company of Heroes 2 to non-teamwork RO2, all that is left is unfinished PR:WW2.

 

 

Heroes and General isn't particularly realistic, but it is very much combined arms and is consistently updated with new content and mechanic improvements. 

 

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Oh you wouldn't play a redone BF1942?   HA ha, you would be on that like poop on a stick!  :)

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Just now, XRobinson said:

Oh you wouldn't play a redone BF1942?   HA ha, you would be on that like poop on a stick!  :)

I'm already on PR:WW2 like a poop on a stick, whatever that means o.o 


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Vietnam! Red rising <3

But in all seriousness ww2 in a frostbite game would be freaking amazing. But still knowing my "beloved" Dice they would screw it all up with attachments and none faction based arsenal. 

Edited by Willertz

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5 minutes ago, Willertz said:

Vietnam! Red rising <3

But in all seriousness ww2 in a frostbite game would be freaking amazing. But still knowing my "beloved" Dice they would screw it all up with attachments and none faction based arsenal. 

Rising Storm 2?

 

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2 hours ago, ShaunOfCathay said:

Rising Storm 2?

 

Yes oh yes. 

 

However I seriously doubt the dev team appreciate you linking all these trailers to other titles.

Edited by Willertz

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Hi all,

I've played PR for 8 years and have been SLing in Squad since pre-alpha. 

I'm currently developing a game similar to Squad set in WW2 on a large 4km square map. The game has some fundamentally different mechanics and meta strategy to Squad, and incorporates an almost RTS style of ticketing. We've been in development for 18 months.

The reason we decided to begin development was basically because we'd never played a WW2 game that emphasised the large PR-level of supply infrastructure with a deep tactical and realistic experience. There are and have always been WW2 arena shooters, but there's rarely been focus on the complexities and interesting nature of real WW2 combat on a 50 vs 50 player level. 

Our game basically takes RO2 gun mechanics and feel, PR level operational strategy (ie. supply trucks and constructed spawns) and merges it with a meta game most similar to Company of Heroes.

For us, the thing that was so exciting and tense about PR was that you weren't always in combat. Those periods of build-up and organisation served as the perfect foreground to explosive action. It's what has made PR so addictive for nearly a decade. It also diversified the experience. A player may be absolutely atrocious at killing the enemy, but may have a really sound level of tactical or strategic reasoning. As such, he could play the game and his skill set would be just as valuable as the front line death star trooper with the 50+ kills. To be good at something and build a reputation for it is much more satisfying to me than climbing a totally arbitrary scoreboard.

Similarly, in nearly every WW2 game, you're treated to the Michael Bay experience. It's like watching Band of Brothers or Saving Private Ryan with all scenes of tension, camaraderie and buildup entirely removed. You spawn and run in expecting to kill or be killed, but you never experience the build that the soldiers felt. What I feel most modern AAA game devs forget, is that saturation of action makes it mundane. To me, it's the deliberate or often surprised thrust into combat that makes games like Squad and PR so interesting and so challenging. It takes immense concentration and discipline to move from strategic thinking, to tactical thinking - to actually firing at people.

WW2 is one of the most distinct and interesting conflicts wherein there was not only a polarisation between the motives of both forces, but that it also distilled those motives into the way these armies fought on the battlefield. It's also vastly different from modern combat, in that there was a relatively distinguishable front line. There's a lot more I could say about it, and I normally resist talking about the project (as it's still in it's infancy - though we are going to announce it properly in the next three months), but I think WW2 will always have an audience - so long as the gameplay is engaging and the proposition is unique. 

At present we have:

- finished the terrain and foliage pass on the map. Buildings are currently WIP on materials and workflow. We have tried destruction but the net load is too great on the server and would compromise player count. We are possibly going to introduce several destroyed states for different buildings. All bridges will be destructible however. All foliage is wind effected - with a plan to add time of day sky.

- team selection and platoon joining is entirely networked, but the UI needs some cleanup and simplification

- main menu is setup and enables direct connection via IP. It is integrated into the Steam subsystem.

- firearms are setup (replicating reload - stock animations, damage states, projectile spawning and travel), as are grenades. Models for each are set up and textured. There are also several establish bullet penetration models that have been set up and are assignable.

- player movement is set up. You can dive to prone, crouch, sprint etc all based on Stamina with appropriate SFX. It feels most like Red Orchestra 2 in both ADS and movement momentum. Some animations need refining (walk backwards, strafe, transition to sprint and crouch, crouch sprinting).

- team spawning and platoon spawning are established. We're currently creating models to mark the spawn points according to WW2 reference material.

- we currently have a high poly model for nearly every vehicle we want to include (including variants such as the Sherman Calliope and the Nebelwerfer) but will focus on the low poly bake once we've solidified the infantry gameplay.

Here are some shit wips that I will end up deleting in about an hour! The majority are from our asset test map where I work on palette, lighting and setup before exporting to the live project. All assets are potentially placeholders and do not represent final production quality. In before "disable cortana and activate windows" ;)

 

6jWeXwA.jpg1wxCV9Y.jpg

ifxBj0B.jpg4kXizu9.jpg

SeIjpG1.jpg

 

 

Edited by +++++

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1 hour ago, +++++ said:

WW2 is one of the most distinct and interesting conflicts wherein there was not only a polarisation between the motives of both forces, but that it also distilled those motives into the way these armies fought on the battlefield. It's also vastly different from modern combat, in that there was a relatively distinguishable front line. There's a lot more I could say about it, and I normally resist talking about the project (as it's still in it's infancy - though we are going to announce it properly in the next three months), but I think WW2 will always have an audience - so long as the gameplay is engaging and the proposition is unique. 

 

 

 


Both forces? If you mean Allies and Axis, the forces within the combined Allied forces still had sometimes radically different tactical and strategic doctrines. The Soviets being on the Eastern Front certainly didn't not appreciate or followed pretty much any of the doctrines used by forces in the Western Front (not to mention the differences between Soviet and American hopes and motivations for after the war) . And even then there were divisions of tactical doctrine between the British and Americans on things like the role of tanks (the British cruiser and infantry tanks vs the American "striking echelon" role), infantry movements (as the typical British infantry section had less firepower than their American counterparts), the preference of the RAF to do nighttime bombing runs vs the USAAF's to do daytime ones). 

The point is again, that the Western and Eastern Fronts, but especially the Western, has been overdone, by FH2 by RO1  by RO2 by DH, by H&G. In that state of it being overdone, it has made the two almost mutually exclusive, which is why I ask what do you mean by "World War Two" and why not something new within World War Two? 

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1 hour ago, ShaunOfCathay said:


Both forces? If you mean Allies and Axis, the forces within the combined Allied forces still had sometimes radically different tactical and strategic doctrines. The Soviets being on the Eastern Front certainly didn't not appreciate or followed pretty much any of the doctrines used by forces in the Western Front (not to mention the differences between Soviet and American hopes and motivations for after the war) . And even then there were divisions of tactical doctrine between the British and Americans on things like the role of tanks (the British cruiser and infantry tanks vs the American "striking echelon" role), infantry movements (as the typical British infantry section had less firepower than their American counterparts), the preference of the RAF to do nighttime bombing runs vs the USAAF's to do daytime ones). 

The point is again, that the Western and Eastern Fronts, but especially the Western, has been overdone, by FH2 by RO1  by RO2 by DH, by H&G. In that state of it being overdone, it has made the two almost mutually exclusive, which is why I ask what do you mean by "World War Two" and why not something new within World War Two? 

I guess I don't really understand what you mean in your final question?

I am aware of all the fighting doctrines used by each nation, and I find that very fascinating. As a result, the theaters of war that we recreate will focus on that by weight of emphasis. The US forces - for instance - will be fielding Shermans against the Panther tanks of Panzer Lehr (in the Normandy campaign). We won't balance the gameplay by making the Shermans more powerful - we will simply allow the US to field more of them as a reflection of that reality. They will need to engage in proper positioning against the far more powerful armour of their German opponents. 

Like reality, the US forces will be able to mark targets for both artillery (ship and land battery) and for P-47 Thunderbolt runs - just as they used in real life. 

Counter to that, the German forces won't have access to aerial strikes as the Luftwaffe was largely destroyed by that stage (with only very rare 109 runs). As such, they will use mortars and artillery battery call-ins - which will require a different style of play to use effectively. 

Our general game design ethos is to present the battlefield as close as we can to the historical paradigm in order to enable the player to use historically viable tactics to triumph as they would have back in 1939-45. We want to give players the tools to make real decisions. Do you blow the bridge, or do you mine it? Do you barrage the orchard, or has the enemy moved back? Will towing the Pak into the hedgerow give it the right field of view onto the fields below?

I am also aware that the Normandy campaign has particularly enormous exposure given the relatively insignificant effect it had on the total breadth of WW2. To that end, we plan to release further theaters of war including Bastogne, Stalingrad, Kursk, Casino and possibly the Pacific theater. There's no real reason to limit it once the netcode and mechanics are set up. The reason we are beginning with the theater we are (Normandy) with the focus we are (US vs German) is because it's a relatively popular touch stone to introduce people to our game.

That said, if you can point me to a WW2 game that plays out on a large map - with capture territories instead of a closet sized cap point, combined arms, towable AT weapons, the ability to place defenses, built on a modern engine, with 50 vs 50 players, that does it's best to model the reality of the conflict, then I will happily stop development and play that.

Edited by +++++

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39 minutes ago, +++++ said:

That said, if you can point me to a WW2 game that plays out on a large map - with capture territories instead of a closet sized cap point, combined arms, towable AT weapons, the ability to place defenses, built on a modern engine, with 50 vs 50 players, that does it's best to model the reality of the conflict, then I will happily stop development and play that.

I'm not looking to discourage anyone from modding a WW2 setting for SQ, because yes it would be incredible with SQ's unique playstyle. Rather because half of WW2 took place in the Asia-Pacific yet almost all the games set in "WW2" focuses on the European theatre, 

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WW2 is hardly overdone.

 

WW2 was immensely popular nearly 10 years ago and that has slowly been replaced by modern warfare ,then a short stint in future combat.

Interest for ww2 has now taken a hold again. Thank god for that since ww2 is one of the most diverse and "balanced" settings for video games. Each faction in WW2 has a very unique set of vehicles, artillery, small arms and aircraft. Each faction had pros and cons, and completely unique strategies.

 

One other benefit of a ww2 setting is there should be zero problems with trademarks on firearms or vehicles.

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Please post on this forum again when you have more news on your game +++++. I for one am very interested as are, i am sure, many others of this forums community. Those screenshots look fantastic. UE4? Your problem might be that a modded WWII Squad would be very similar to what you're trying to achieve. Adding a Company of Heroes meta game, I can imagine, wouldn't be too difficult to implement within a Squad mod either.

Good luck with your project.

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Gonna be a slut for +++++'s updates. :P

3 hours ago, gibonez said:

WW2 is hardly overdone.

 

WW2 was immensely popular nearly 10 years ago and that has slowly been replaced by modern warfare ,then a short stint in future combat.

Interest for ww2 has now taken a hold again. Thank god for that since ww2 is one of the most diverse and "balanced" settings for video games. Each faction in WW2 has a very unique set of vehicles, artillery, small arms and aircraft. Each faction had pros and cons, and completely unique strategies.

 

One other benefit of a ww2 setting is there should be zero problems with trademarks on firearms or vehicles.

I feel that you can never get enough of WWII, but the thing is that we've been seeing the same damn theatres being played out again and again. No one seems to want to fire Arisakas when they could rattle MG42s, and no one wants to lug Owen guns when they could plow a Calliope.

It's a great time to revisit WWII again, but I think that it's time to stop milking Normandy, that's grossly overdone. Heck, they'll already be special if they replaced the Americans with British forces!

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One thing that irks me is that some of the biggest theaters of WW2. (German invasion of Polanld, German invasion of France. North Afrika campaign) Don't even get a bloody mention in these billion of games.

 

1 hour ago, Blackout330 said:

he thing is that we've been seeing the same damn theatres being played out again and again. No one seems to want to fire Arisakas when they could rattle MG42s, and no one wants to lug Owen guns when they could plow a Calliope.

 

Speak for yourself, I played RS like nuts when it first game out and max leveled both Arisaka's within a month! The only other weapon that's even remotely close to their level is the Mosin-Nagat which is not even half way though.

 

And owen guns are great, they got a smashing rep in both WW2 and Vietnam.

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11 minutes ago, I_hate_usernames said:

One thing that irks me is that some of the biggest theaters of WW2. (German invasion of Polanld, German invasion of France. North Afrika campaign) Don't even get a bloody mention in these billion of games.

 

 

Speak for yourself, I played RS like nuts when it first game out and max leveled both Arisaka's within a month! The only other weapon that's even remotely close to their level is the Mosin-Nagat which is not even half way though.

 

And owen guns are great, they got a smashing rep in both WW2 and Vietnam.

ANZACs in Africa, that would be a great bloody game, there was a mod for RO1 that had the African theatre, it was amazing.

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25 minutes ago, I_hate_usernames said:

One thing that irks me is that some of the biggest theaters of WW2. (German invasion of Polanld, German invasion of France. North Afrika campaign) Don't even get a bloody mention in these billion of games.

 

Not to mention that Russians invaded Poland 16 days after the Germans. Its really strange how we have never seen it in WWII Games.

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10 minutes ago, mastah4 said:

Not to mention that Russians invaded Poland 16 days after the Germans. Its really strange how we have never seen it in WWII Games.

Mostly because almost all of the Polish army was exhausted from facing Germany by that time.

 

Most of that game would be played as Soviet officers executing surrendered Poles.

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3 hours ago, Major Trouble said:

Please post on this forum again when you have more news on your game +++++. I for one am very interested as are, i am sure, many others of this forums community. Those screenshots look fantastic. UE4? Your problem might be that a modded WWII Squad would be very similar to what you're trying to achieve. Adding a Company of Heroes meta game, I can imagine, wouldn't be too difficult to implement within a Squad mod either.

Good luck with your project.

Thanks Major. Yes, this is in UE4 (although we're trying to avoid that plastic look that UE4 so often gives).

I have no doubt that a WW2 mod for Squad will come along, but I suspect that the developers of it will discover very quickly what we too discovered - that creating map assets to create a realistic European scene (particularly of interest and density in city areas) requires incredible attention to detail both architecturally and artistically. In our game, we have worked very hard to transition the player through many, many different environments in a single map that all hold up as AAA quality (or something approaching that). We marshall forces in an Orchard, fight across open fields to the first village (in which every building is enterable), before cross swamps, rivers, flooded fields, fighting up graveyard hillsides, through woods and beech and pine forests, through a city, through a railway station and then into a factory district. Instead of putting down a height map out of World Machine and then importing splat maps with a couple of foliage types (which is how maps in Squad are often generated initially), you'll find that cities and locations across Europe are built up as a result of thousands of years of agriculture, and that to get a scene to look "right" you need to study drainage ditches, the way hedgerows are formed, the flow of towns (none are grid based), the placement of forest and woodland amongst logically laid out fields and farmland. Very quickly, to get a convincing map on our scale (which is the size of Skyrim) you need to spend many, many hours handplacing well coordinated assets and manually shaping the terrain to match the embankments and hedgerow formations that (for instance) make up the Bocage terrain. For us, painting an ARV Sherman variant (one a player would drive to tow mobility killed armour back to base for repairs) is relatively easy compared to balancing LODs, fields of view and getting everything to just feel "right". Similarly, the vision for this game is quite dense. It would be easy to shoehorn particular elements in, but many core mechanics in Squad need to be rationalised differently to be anything like our project. While a mod would be supported by the mod team, we aim to support this as a full fledged title for 3+ years on release (with aims to go much longer!). That said, I wish any modders all the best - I love WW2 and basically play anything from that era.

3 hours ago, Blackout330 said:

Gonna be a slut for +++++'s updates. :P

I feel that you can never get enough of WWII, but the thing is that we've been seeing the same damn theatres being played out again and again. No one seems to want to fire Arisakas when they could rattle MG42s, and no one wants to lug Owen guns when they could plow a Calliope.

It's a great time to revisit WWII again, but I think that it's time to stop milking Normandy, that's grossly overdone. Heck, they'll already be special if they replaced the Americans with British forces!

Yeah, we looked around and figured that we'd do a pretty typical theater of war, but differentiate ourselves by actually skinning the Germans properly (as Panzer Lehr, SS Hitler Youth and Fallschirmjager) and equipping them with the historical mix of tanks and armour they had available. Although the saturation in the images above is quite high, the final look and feel will basically be like playing Saving Private Ryan or Band of Brothers - however the band is you and your friends fighting your way through the Norman landscape. I've also never experienced a Nebelwerfer strike before, so that should be fun to implement (along with the Flammenwerfer).

After releasing the larger and better known theaters, we'd like to do interesting things like the Warsaw Uprising - pitting the Polish resistance against the Dirlewanger brigade, or the Battle for the outskirts of Moscow, or the Anzacs on the Kokoda trail against the Japanese. We're particularly interested to see how our particular meta game would fare in a jungle context (thinking Thin Red Line).

Edited by +++++

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1 hour ago, I_hate_usernames said:

One thing that irks me is that some of the biggest theaters of WW2. (German invasion of Polanld, German invasion of France. North Afrika campaign) Don't even get a bloody mention in these billion of games.

 

 

Speak for yourself, I played RS like nuts when it first game out and max leveled both Arisaka's within a month! The only other weapon that's even remotely close to their level is the Mosin-Nagat which is not even half way though.

 

And owen guns are great, they got a smashing rep in both WW2 and Vietnam.

I played it like nuts too man, I loved killing dressed as a flower. But damn players always find every chance they get to switch it to Apartments and Bridges.

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