ShaunOfCathay

On the overdone genre "World War Two"

174 posts in this topic

I'm honestly not exactly sure where to put this, I thought about Feedback and Ideas but this doesn't directly relate to the exact development of the current game though it does relate to the future of Squad. I also thought about putting this into non-"Squad" discussion, but I feel this has more to do with the future modding of Squad and it feels like so many want to make another bloody WW2 mini-mod, which while I'm certain is well-intended filled with a love for the history of the 2nd World War, I am very weary of that supposed genre. 

And TL;DR for those who don't want to go through a wall of text: Western Front + Eastern Front != World War Two the former two of which are way overdone as settings in supposed "World War Two" FPS

Now I will be expanding on a reddit post I made on a kickstarter post about [url="https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/498i7x/days_of_war_kickstarter_video_spiritual_successor/"]Days of War. Now, before anyone calls me out for being hypocritical (the boldness symbolizes and embodies my wishes that this be read first! Or at the very least before anyone responds), as I recently expressed my excitement and speculation that PR:WW2 was ready for PR v.1.4 (which btw if anyone couldn't tell I speaking humourously as the a dev already stated it would not be included in 1.4, though I will try to find that exact post) I would like to make clear that PR:WW2 began development 2012-2013 (though it might have been even earlier) during which the "established" and alive WW2 shooters were really only Red Orchestra 2 and Forgotten Hope 2 (and FH2 does not have large playerbase at all). Additionally I did not really enjoyed PR:Normandy/WW2 due to its low quality compared to vanilla PR, consistent bugs, janky and odd models, very bare and open landscapes w/ low foliage and cover, and a terrible deviation for bolt action rifle and only really changed my mind after that mindblowingly awesome Alpha test of OP Overlord back in Christmas 2014.

Thus I shall begin my appeal, which I state, current and future modders , if you are modding or considering modding Squad and have worked on or are considering working on a World War Two mini-mod/add-on, I beseech you for the life of me to seriously reconsider, Why am I perhaps poking into business that is perhaps not mine? Because I believe that the "return" of the "WW2" FPS shooter paradigm will only ruin and bring mediocrity to a genre that is already ruined by bland, and cyclical themes.  Here is a list of new WW2 shooters (including PR:WW2)

Days of War

 

Battalion 1944

 

Insurgency: Day of Infamy

 

Traction Wars 

 

And of course our very own PR:WW2 (formerly PR:Normandy)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However, not only are there these somewhat recent "WW2" shooters already out, there are actually a good number of popular and populated "WW2" shooters

 

 

Red Orchestra 2 

 

And Rising Storm 2

 

Heroes and Generals

 

Forgotten Hope 2

 

With the exception of RS and some maps from FH2, all of these are set in the Western or Eastern Fronts and while storming the beaches of Normandy in PR:WW2 was incredibly visceral and intense, I am honestly getting sick of that setting. Seriously, even though Western Front was perhaps the greatest and hopefully last struggle between industrial nations and I doubt that WW2 would have ever ended in Allied victory without the sacrifice of millions of Soviet lives on the Eastern Front, THAT IS NOT THE ENTIRETY OF WORLD WAR TWO. There are so many theatres and campaigns in WW2 that are NEVER explored by video games. There was the 2nd Sino-Japanese War, the Burma Campaign, the Aleutian Campaign, the guerilla campaigns of partisans across Nazi-occupied Eastern Europe (yes Enemy Front is set during the Warsaw Uprising, but the focus was on singleplayer and the multiplayer is mostly dead), the early war when Germany rolled over Europe, the North African theatre, the Balkan and Greek campaigns, the Winter War of 1939, the Soviet-Japanese border conflicts, the invasion of Manchuria (both the Soviet and Japanese), the overlap of the Chinese Civil War over the 2nd Sino-Japanese War. I could go on and on about theatres and campaigns that I think are honestly far more interesting than the classic Western or Eastern Front; the Sino-Japanese war was marked by absolutely intense urban combat with bolt action rifles as the primary firearm, usage of interwar weapons and tactics, and an asymmetrical component characterized by the relatively under-industrialized status of China. The Battle of Nanking was fought by the defending Chinese from a wall built during the freaking Ming Dynasty! I therefore conclude and beg, dear modders, to explore new options within the genre of World War 2 not constrained by the overdone and over-saturated Normandies and Stalingrads and the occasional Iwo Jimas so as to diversify the genre of first person shooter and avoid the mediocrity of mainstream paradigms. 

Thank you for you time

EDIT: Some stills from the film City of Life and Death, which by the way is an absolute incredible and provocative war film on the Battle, and subsequent Rape of Nanking in 1937
city-of-life-and-death-1.jpg

Imperial Japanese Army soldiers 

Blu-Ray-City-of-Life-and-Death.jpg

German trained and equipped soldiers of the National Revolutionary Army 

 

ki2pyvY.jpg

Still from a battle sequence of an ambush

 

lLNwGtA.jpg

Cinematic still from behind some IJA soldiers after a mass execution. 

 

 

 

 

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Red Orchestra 1 and 2 are the greatest WW2 shooters I've ever played, if you get the chance I highly recommend them.

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Just now, PinguThePenguin said:

Red Orchestra 1 and 2 are the greatest WW2 shooters I've ever played, if you get the chance I highly recommend them.

I've played both RO2 and RS and plan on getting RS2, I tried out Darkest Hour but the servers were rather depopulated. 

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Just now, ShaunOfCathay said:

I've played both RO2 and RS and plan on getting RS2, I tried out Darkest Hour but the servers were rather depopulated. 

Never liked RS1 but RS2 looks pretty good.

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3 minutes ago, PinguThePenguin said:

Red Orchestra 1 and 2 are the greatest WW2 shooters I've ever played, if you get the chance I highly recommend them.

Never tried them, i got that Verdun one but it seemed like a completely weird game. I was ok with it, but didn't sit right with me.

But thanks for suggesting those games i might give them a try.

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None of the games you listed are comparable to Squad WWII mod and how it would play like apart from PR (which can't complete graphically). I have a suggestion for you. If you don't want to play a fps in the most interesting period of recent warfare then don't. There are plenty of people that still want that era to make its return on the digital battlefield as had been shown by polls.

I doubt I'll be playing any of the other games you've listed on the grounds I've played their formula before (excluding P2W titles, I don't 'buy' those). Fine maybe for a quick blast but I look for a bit more depth to my games these days.

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My favorite WW2 game happens to not be a multiplayer game but a series of single player games called Brothers in Arms..epicness

Also, RO1>RO2

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1 minute ago, Litoralis said:

You missed at least two:

www.festungeuropagame.com/

Enemy Front.

http://www.1944game.com/

Mmmmm, I mentioned Enemy Front near the end but the servers for multiplayer are even more dead than FH2 (shame too, it looked pretty good), and I left out Festung Europa and 1944 exactly because I have never heard of them and they dont seem to have substantial footage of gameplay or progress on their sites. 

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17 minutes ago, Dubs said:

My favorite WW2 game happens to not be a multiplayer game but a series of single player games called Brothers in Arms..epicness

Also, RO1>RO2

Forgot about them, they do have a great singleplayer.

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I'm in total agreement with OP statement.Myself personally,I'm sick & tired of WW2 games...Been there,done that,worn the T-Shirt.

Imho!.

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52 minutes ago, Major Trouble said:

None of the games you listed are comparable to Squad WWII mod and how it would play like apart from PR (which can't complete graphically). I have a suggestion for you. If you don't want to play a fps in the most interesting period of recent warfare then don't. There are plenty of people that still want that era to make its return on the digital battlefield as had been shown by polls.

I doubt I'll be playing any of the other games you've listed on the grounds I've played their formula before (excluding P2W titles, I don't 'buy' those). Fine maybe for a quick blast but I look for a bit more depth to my games these days.

No, I probably will play a Squad WWII mod regardless as I've spent quite a fair amount of money on this project, assuming one of the quality required of vanilla Squad is made. The point is that what is popularly considered to be "World War Two" is the Western and Eastern fronts (in the context of video games) and on some occasions the Pacific Theatre but thats about it, and that was the problem with the over-saturation of WW2 games in the mid 2000s. If we enter this new market already beginning to over-saturate with already established (like RO/RS) or high-potential WW2 games (like Battalion 1944), it will be taken as face value by not only average FPS gamers who play Call of Duty and the like, but also by"hardcore" FPS gamers regardless of how much they may know about Squad, because its just the Western Front or maybe Eastern Front, which again, has been overdone. 

And its not just about you or I or our relative small community, but the bigger picture, no we don't need to attract as many players as possible, but we are* going to attract very few players if we introduce another Western Front style "WW2" shooter. You know whats going to happen if in the future after most of the kickstarter "WW2 shooters" are deep in development that the devs announce a WW2 addon (assuming the modders are compensated)? I will guarantee that it will be met with groans and cries of mediocrity because the new "WW2" FPS market is already beginning to over-saturate. 

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Why don't you cast your net a little wider and say we're all sick of playing mediocre fps titles and they shouldn't do it anymore. If a decent WWII game comes along, no matter what the theatre, I'll be jumping in. Squad for me is the ideal candidate to be modded for WWII. It's a game with genuine teamplay and large maps and not the small run and gun type of game that is being repeated now.

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1 minute ago, Major Trouble said:

Why don't you cast your net a little wider and say we're all sick of playing mediocre fps titles and they shouldn't do it anymore. If a decent WWII game comes along, no matter what the theatre, I'll be jumping in. Squad for me is the ideal candidate to be modded for WWII. It's a game with genuine teamplay and large maps and not the small run and gun type of game that is being repeated now.

If I were to cast my net wider then I wouldn't be discussing this on the Squad forums, I'm personally sick of playing mediocre fps "WW2" titles not because they are mediocre in themselves, but that in their multitude and commonality, they are made mediocre. Thus I ask the question, what do you mean by World War Two? Because the aesthetics and settings the "WW2" mod will make the greater impression than Squad's unique appeal. In fact I think to have a WW2 mod set in the Western Front would actually be regressive for Squad as game, because unless a player is already convinced of Squad's game mechanics and special playstyle, a minimod with an overdone setting isnt going to make anyone want to play the game as a whole or the addon. 

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A good point and a valid concern. I would add that not only the WW2 modding might produce mediocrity but modding in general has a tendency to do so as it is not inherently the war era but where the development resources go, who is allowed to develop them and how etc.

But this is something I have rambled on enough probably. At least for now.

It's good to know that there's other people thinking along these lines out there but I am sure this won't change anything. If modding is allowed WW2 etc. modding is going to happen, possibly "ruining" the genre as you put it. If modding isn't allowed people will raise hell, boycott products etc. the irony being that the very thing that they strive so fervently for might end up ruining the game for them. After which they move on to the next and the rest are just in it for the ride I guess. 

Now, where has this also been the case, hm? :D

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7 minutes ago, ShaunOfCathay said:

If I were to cast my net wider then I wouldn't be discussing this on the Squad forums, I'm personally sick of playing mediocre fps "WW2" titles not because they are mediocre in themselves, but that in their multitude and commonality, they are made mediocre. Thus I ask the question, what do you mean by World War Two? Because the aesthetics and settings the "WW2" mod will make the greater impression than Squad's unique appeal. In fact I think to have a WW2 mod set in the Western Front would actually be regressive for Squad as game, because unless a player is already convinced of Squad's game mechanics and special playstyle, a minimod with an overdone setting isnt going to make anyone want to play the game as a whole or the addon. 

My desire is to, once again, fight on the beaches of Northern France and push on down into the towns known in history but with the size, graphics & gameplay Squad brings to the table. The current offerings are far too shallow games to peak my interest even if they may look pretty.

Most people playing Squad are not new to fps gaming and either dislike run & gun games or, like myself, want a more team work focused game. You either like that idea or you don't. Having a WWII mod can only enhance the appeal of Squad for those looking to that era specifically.

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2 hours ago, ShaunOfCathay said:


EDIT: Some stills from the film City of Life and Death, which by the way is an absolute incredible and provocative war film on the Battle, and subsequent Rape of Nanking in 1937
city-of-life-and-death-1.jpg

Imperial Japanese Army soldiers 

Blu-Ray-City-of-Life-and-Death.jpg

German trained and equipped soldiers of the National Revolutionary Army 

 

ki2pyvY.jpg

Still from a battle sequence of an ambush

 

lLNwGtA.jpg

Cinematic still from behind some IJA soldiers after a mass execution. 

 

 

 

 

I remember watching that move, man it was fucked up.

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Let's not forget the invasion of Italy and the North African campaign. Italy in particular would have some stunning vistas playing into the UE4 + TrueSky capabilities. 

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31 minutes ago, Tilen said:

A good point and a valid concern. I would add that not only the WW2 modding might produce mediocrity but modding in general has a tendency to do so as it is not inherently the war era but where the development resources go, who is allowed to develop them and how etc.

But this is something I have rambled on enough probably. At least for now.

It's good to know that there's other people thinking along these lines out there but I am sure this won't change anything. If modding is allowed WW2 etc. modding is going to happen, possibly "ruining" the genre as you put it. If modding isn't allowed people will raise hell, boycott products etc. the irony being that the very thing that they strive so fervently for might end up ruining the game for them. After which they move on to the next and the rest are just in it for the ride I guess. 

Now, where has this also been the case, hm? :D

I don't intend to and would never impose my myself over others. If someone wants to or is thinking about making a WW2 mod (which evidently, yes), by all means do so, I'm merely asking them to perhaps consider other settings not done to death.

15 minutes ago, Major Trouble said:

My desire is to, once again, fight on the beaches of Northern France and push on down into the towns known in history but with the size, graphics & gameplay Squad brings to the table. The current offerings are far too shallow games to peak my interest even if they may look pretty.

Most people playing Squad are not new to fps gaming and either dislike run & gun games or, like myself, want a more team work focused game. You either like that idea or you don't. Having a WWII mod can only enhance the appeal of Squad for those looking to that era specifically.

And I suppose that's where we disagree, where you see the Western Front setting enhancing the SQ experience, I see it as the overdone setting that degrades SQ by putting it in the same mediocre genre alongside much more shallow fps.

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18 minutes ago, ShaunOfCathay said:

I don't intend to and would never impose my myself over others. If someone wants to or is thinking about making a WW2 mod (which evidently, yes), by all means do so, I'm merely asking them to perhaps consider other settings not done to death.

You are suggesting your viewpoint as am I, and this I understand. I merely added my perspective. As for imposing etc. you are implying that the genre has been done to death which the WWII fans probably do not agree on so no use in riding the high horse. Though I do agree with you for all it's worth. ;)

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8 minutes ago, ShaunOfCathay said:

I don't intend to and would never impose my myself over others. If someone wants to or is thinking about making a WW2 mod (which evidently, yes), by all means do so, I'm merely asking them to perhaps consider other settings not done to death.

And I suppose that's where we disagree, where you see the Western Front setting enhancing the SQ experience, I see it as the overdone setting that degrades SQ by putting it in the same mediocre genre alongside much more shallow fps.

Squad now brings teamwork to the front like no other title out there (apart from PR). That in itself makes it a very different experience. It's the era of warfare many still want to play because of its simplicity and history. You're now not pushing those flack 88 positions alone or maybe with a couple of mates on team speak. You have your squad with you making your attack count like in Band of Brothers. You're now not running and gunning through the streets of Carentan alone but pushing in with your squad coordinating your advance with your armor flanking the town to cut off the supply line. 

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RO1 Darkest Hour ftw! I'm looking forward to Traction Wars and Festung Europa.

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