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Are the scopes not working in the current build? The gameplay footage I've seen so far doesn't betray a performance drop when ADS. 

 

There is a fairly large performance drop with the 3d scopes at the moment, and it's something we are actively working on.  It's 'fine' if you are okay with a drop from 60fps to 30-40fps but many people just aren't.  

 

It's a hard challenge that doesn't come with an easy win.  We are working on it though.  

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I think it is best to have two options. 1. The scope is in its current form. 2. PR style scope function for those with lesser hardware/ and or prefer it. 

 

Zooming and masking (the traditional way to do zooming) is very good on performance but is a significant gameplay advantage over a 3d scope.  

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There is a fairly large performance drop with the 3d scopes at the moment, and it's something we are actively working on.  It's 'fine' if you are okay with a drop from 60fps to 30-40fps but many people just aren't.  

 

It's a hard challenge that doesn't come with an easy win.  We are working on it though.  

 

Not to mention that your sight picture is 256x256 resolution and with a bad bit depth. Increasing that to a higher resolution (512x512) will make it.... challenging to most computers. and that is putting it nicely.

 

Don't know about you guys, but looking at Super Mario in my scope kinda breaks my immersion a lil' bit.

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Not to mention that your sight picture is 256x256 resolution and with a bad bit depth. Increasing that to a higher resolution (512x512) will make it.... challenging to most computers. and that is putting it nicely.

 

Don't know about you guys, but looking at Super Mario in my scope kinda breaks my immersion a lil' bit.

Maybe if the audience only knows about scopes from "The Hurt Locker" it will increase it :P

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From the gameplay videos we have seen the picture is low res but it's bearable, the rest of the scene is gorgeous to make up for it. Compromising for the low end pc population seems like what it's gonna come down to. As long as frames stay above 30 the drop in fps is manageable.

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From the gameplay videos we have seen the picture is low res but it's bearable, the rest of the scene is gorgeous to make up for it. Compromising for the low end pc population seems like what it's gonna come down to. As long as frames stay above 30 the drop in fps is manageable.

 

We aren't compromising for low end, we are comprising for high end PCs.  I run the game at 60fps normally and when we turn the scopes up to high it tanks my FPS to the sub 30 level.  That's just straight up not acceptable for a high end PC.

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Also, keep in mind that the ACOG 4x scope wont be the only scope that will ever be in the game. much higher and lower zoom factors will be in. Especially for anything lower than 4x it makes no sense tanking your frame rate and decreasing resolution, making CQB sights (that has magnification) useless essentially  

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Are you guys optimistic about any new engine changes or tweaks to make it work how you'd like?

They are probably waiting for Unreal 4.8 which going to come out soon.

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Why not give an option for 3d scopes and no 3d scopes? I don't see having 3d scopes as an advantage, I mostly see it as future proofing the product.

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Why isnt it possible to just zoom localy instead of the hole screen, it could a good compromising between FPS. And immersion. I mean just like a digital zoom, no texture rendered. Also I have no Fps drop in insurgency when using magnified optics

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As much as I love them in games like RO2, I personally would be fine with shelving render to texture scopes for now if the technology just isn't there yet. My concern is not just about the resolution, but also the fact that they don't currently render shadows within them, making it easier to spot enemies at medium ranges that may have otherwise been partially concealed in a shadow. Minimizing the discrepancy between the concealment you see around you (foliage, shadows, grass, etc) and what another player sees at distance (especially mid-range), as much as possible, is something I think is extremely important.

Several Arma 3 mods have run into similar problems in attempting picture-in-picture scopes. One suggestion that sometimes comes up is to apply the render-to-texture effect to the area outside the scope as opposed to the inside like it is now. That way the inside of the scope, which is the part that you will be focusing on, is at the normal detail level and resolution but just pushes forward the FOV for zoom, while the peripheral vision outside the scope is a PIP effect of the regular FOV, maybe darkened to obscure the lower quality. Attempts at this solution in the Arma engine have given mixed results, partially due to engine-specific issues, but perhaps in UE4 it might work better.

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Not sure what the engine allows for, but would it be viable to render-to-texture the outside of the scope instead of the inside. Render the outside without shadows and at lower resolution, then blur and compose into the main frame? Hell, maybe the outside could only render every other frame which might be less taxing on the graphics pipeline.
 

Why isnt it possible to just zoom localy instead of the hole screen, it could a good compromising between FPS. And immersion. I mean just like a digital zoom, no texture rendered. Also I have no Fps drop in insurgency when using magnified optics


It would look dreadful. For a 4x scope each 'pixel' would take up 16x the area, and it would only get worse for higher zoom levels.

 

The reason that render-to-texture optics work in insurgency is because insurgency isn't particularly graphics intensive. It looks good, but the number of draw calls will absolutely pale in comparison with Squad.

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Not sure what the engine allows for, but would it be viable to render-to-texture the outside of the scope instead of the inside. Render the outside without shadows and at lower resolution, then blur and compose into the main frame? Hell, maybe the outside could only render every other frame which might be less taxing on the graphics pipeline.

 

Only problem is with CQB sights with maginfications of 1.5x, 2.7x, 3x ect, the rest of the screen will be pixelated, blurry, with bad shadows and lower frame rate :) not really ideal for CQB :)

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Only problem is with CQB sights with maginfications of 1.5x, 2.7x, 3x ect, the rest of the screen will be pixelated, blurry, with bad shadows and lower frame rate :) not really ideal for CQB :)

 

Fair enough, though I bet that you could get away with some degree of quality degradation on the outside of the scope since it won't be the focus. I assume it will be necessary since even with the optimizations that may be possible I can't imagine it will be sufficient to get full fat 3d scopes without compromise.

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 I can't imagine it will be sufficient to get full fat 3d scopes without compromise.

 

It won't. No matter what scope solution we end up with, there will have to be compromises, no question in my mind about it. We have to pick our poison and live with the vocal minority's constant cries for everything that they ever desired and then some. So, another day at the office :)

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Alright. So is Unreal Engine really that inefficient at doing that? I guess it makes sense, but I would have expected some better performance. If games like Insurgency can handle it, I hope Squad can do it as well. Nvm, Insurgency doesn't have it. Damn.

 

insurgency has it:

 

 

I dont know how the drawing mechanics work in UE4, but is it possible to replace vegetation and trees with 2d brushes when using scopes to save performance? with the right sprite you could hardly tell the difference I think

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insurgency has it:

 

 

I dont know how the drawing mechanics work in UE4, but is it possible to replace vegetation and trees with 2d brushes when using scopes to save performance? with the right sprite you could hardly tell the difference I think

There is a difference between the games that have it and can run it smoothly and us, our environments (that has to be rendered 2x) are much MUCH larger/more complex.

 

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I do not believe Insurgency does true 3d scopes.  I'm pretty sure they fake it when it doesn't take up the entire screen.  

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It is definitely a case of working towards the best solution for the majority. As we know not everyone can be catered for. At the end of the day this is a game and therefore balance has to be key. In the real, I am sure you can get optics that make you super OP but that isn't the goal here. If you want a long range scope then there must be some form of trade off. If you are more effective at range, then for one reason or another you should be less effective in CQB at least while ADS'ing. Hip fire at 2m it's a case of who is quickest to point and shoot regardless of the scope you have eqipped. I don't have a solution but I don't think any shooter has cracked the issue with sight balance thus far.

Perhaps you can also look into trade off in terms of how quick you raise your sights, iron and red dot being really fast and that scales taking longer the higher the magnification goes?

Also, is there zero'ing in Squad?

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One kinda annoying thing with weapon sights in video games is how their metal housings take up alot of screen space. The current aimpoint in Squad suffers from this with it's tiny sight picture and gigantic metal housing.

 

Levelcap made a video a few months back with som very interesting ideas on how to make red dots less annoying and maybe even more realistic. Would be cool if you could experiment with something like this in Squad.

 

 

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Really informative video. Thanks for sharing. :)

 

I don't think using transparency or slight edge-blurring are satisfactory solutions, though. They just look strange and don't give you that "focal distance blur" like in the video of a real holographic sight.

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