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oblivio69

Squad radar

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you do have a point there, and i completely agree with you on the last paragraph. i'm not actually against the sthud itself as much as i'm against a full 360d to 50m radar. i'm ok with a semicircular radar out to 20m, as your peripheral vision wont discern anything beyond that, and you can see what's ahead of you yourself. there still has to be some effort to maintain squad cohesion other than looking at the radar.

Believe me, it's not as simple as just looking at the radar. If you're going to maintain good spacing, formation and cohesion you have to police yourself almost constantly. STHud is a tool to assist in this process - Without it, this becomes a much more arduous task on top of trying to shoot other people while not getting shot yourself. It also makes it so much easier for element leaders to make sure their group is cohesive, allowing them to focus on everything else such leadership entails. 

 

Someone mentioned concerns about the STHud showing you instantly when a teammate goes down - Typically it shouldn't, the player's symbol will just remain immobile. However, in the case of members with special symbols (AR, AT etc.), that symbol will sometimes disappear, likewise when the element leader is killed (Or incapacitated in ArmA 2's case), the next person in line will know instantly. As far as I'm aware, this is a limitation of ArmA.

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I disagree that "what sets the good players apart" is their ability to play nanny and constantly check their squad members to make sure they're doing their jobs. I'd way rather cut the monotonous work of being an SL and having to turn around and inspect the squad to check they are covering their sectors and are sticking together and all that nonsense. What makes them good players is formulating strategies, executing tactics, relaying knowledge and working with others.

I don't think we should make it any easier for squad leaders because it is their job to stay on top of their squad. This means not having a magical circle tell them exactly where their SMs are and in what direction they're facing, and even more so not telling them what kits their SMs have. Part of the challenge of being a SL is splitting your attention between your squad and the battlefield and I'd hate to see that go. Multi-tasking is the prerequisite for SLing and if you're not up to the task then there shouldn't be any easy way out (not saying that you guys arguing for SThud can't handle it, just that it feels a little bit cheap)

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Just leave the option for a hardcore server mode and everyone gets what they want :)Im with Wrecker though. A prepared and capable squad leader is able to manage his SMs via comms and line of sight. This is the challenge of being a SL.In a pub environment, itll be like herding cats. Which is why I dont want to play nubpubs. I want to play with my squad, my battle buddies. If Im covering left flank, I *will* be covering the left flank.

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Believe me, it's not as simple as just looking at the radar. If you're going to maintain good spacing, formation and cohesion you have to police yourself almost constantly. STHud is a tool to assist in this process - Without it, this becomes a much more arduous task on top of trying to shoot other people while not getting shot yourself. It also makes it so much easier for element leaders to make sure their group is cohesive, allowing them to focus on everything else such leadership entails.

 

 

I don't think we should make it any easier for squad leaders because it is their job to stay on top of their squad. This means not having a magical circle tell them exactly where their SMs are and in what direction they're facing, and even more so not telling them what kits their SMs have. Part of the challenge of being a SL is splitting your attention between your squad and the battlefield and I'd hate to see that go. Multi-tasking is the prerequisite for SLing and if you're not up to the task then there shouldn't be any easy way out (not saying that you guys arguing for SThud can't handle it, just that it feels a little bit cheap)

 

As Morbo said, STHUD is a tool, but it's not a magic wand. You're still going to be managing your squad; the HUD doesn't tell them that they need to cover different directions. It doesn't tell them that you need to set up a base of fire, or to have a fireteam start flanking. It doesn't tell your squadmates whether to get on firing line to prepare for contact or pull 360 security while you assess the situation. There is still plenty of squad management to do, especially now with the possible ability to divvy up fireteams.

 

It just makes it easier so that you don't have to constantly babysit your squad and divert your attention to do so. It frees you up to actually focus on planning your next move and coordinating with other squads to come up with a strategy.

 

Nobody's ever gonna finish a game of Squad with the thought "Wow, overlapping sectors sure are fun!"

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Because usually the one who shouts the loudest get's what he wants, I must say that some STHUD type of feature should be implemented, due to the reasons stated above. This would have more focus on the combat going on and less nannying players. No immersion is lost there, rather gained.

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Again, simply leverage the existing PR compass. It's 180 degrees, already used by the players and unobtrusive. Just small color-coded tics or dots in the direction of friendly players, faded out by distance. No new UI elements, no god-like top-down view.

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I'm going to be honest guys, My eyes aren't the best, and as several of you here will attest, I have on occasion partaken in blue on blue events, so in my mind, having the ability to help to tell friend from foe at close quarters would be helpful, I can see fin in everyday life but on screen it's a little harder, but i understand where your coming from when you say that this is part of the game.. just my opinion.

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I played with the STHud, it's rather useless for me.

The time it needs for me to look to the bottom and see what is going on on the hud is longer than just pressing "ALT" and turn the head around in a split of a second, or your members just telling you where they look at.

I think that you can learn to have great situational awareness through communicating, using your brain and looking around, rather than a little hud sitting there and makes your brain useless.

If your Squad stays together and your squadleader is doing his actual job, the squad automatically retain situational awareness.

But in the end, most players don't want to use their brain while playing and just shoot people in the face and have a little helper to not shoot your friendly into his face. ;)

People also tend to be in their own world with seeing the hud and thinking they have good situational awareness, but they actually don't because the hud is not the only world there. Communication and your eyes and brain are the key for being aware of what you need to be aware in the battlefield. Yes you get more input, but in the end its parts the good from the bad, but the bad can learn, while with hud they wont learn, because noone is talking about position and shit.

 

What i want to say is: You can have situational awareness and focus on the enemy without having the hud.

Just a sidenote: Looking around while having contact with the enemy is VITAL, it adds to your situational awareness. It breaks the tunnelvision people get when focusing on something.

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I played with the STHud, it's rather useless for me.

The time it needs for me to look to the bottom and see what is going on on the hud is longer than just pressing "ALT" and turn the head around in a split of a second, or your members just telling you where they look at.

I think that you can learn to have great situational awareness through communicating, using your brain and looking around, rather than a little hud sitting there and makes your brain useless.

If your Squad stays together and your squadleader is doing his actual job, the squad automatically retain situational awareness.

But in the end, most players don't want to use their brain while playing and just shoot people in the face and have a little helper to not shoot your friendly into his face. ;)

People also tend to be in their own world with seeing the hud and thinking they have good situational awareness, but they actually don't because the hud is not the only world there. Communication and your eyes and brain are the key for being aware of what you need to be aware in the battlefield. Yes you get more input, but in the end its parts the good from the bad, but the bad can learn, while with hud they wont learn, because noone is talking about position and shit.

 

What i want to say is: You can have situational awareness and focus on the enemy without having the hud.

Just a sidenote: Looking around while having contact with the enemy is VITAL, it adds to your situational awareness. It breaks the tunnelvision people get when focusing on something.

Having to manually keep track of your squadmates is an impairment to situational awareness.

You say that you can easily do so by verbally communicating it, you really think asking "Okay, where are you all in relation to me" and waiting for each of them to reply, or actually looking around to see them is going to take less time than looking at a HUD element that gives you this information instantly? Can you see through buildings and foliage? The STHUD eliminates most of the need for communicating "I'm watching X sector", "I'm around the corner from you" etc. because you get this information straight away by looking at it. It frees up the time it would otherwise take to keep track of your squadmates allowing you to focus more on the enemy as well as where you should be in relation to your squad. 

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I personally welcome any addition that helps less experienced players engage in squadwork and teamwork with me.

Keep the radar, unintrusive, informative and most of all SIMPLE, so it actually helps these players.

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And therein lies the problem.

 

Quoting half the sentence and quarter the point won't help your weird agenda. Here's what Morbo said:

 

Having to manually keep track of your squadmates is an impairment to situational awareness.

You say that you can easily do so by verbally communicating it, you really think asking "Okay, where are you all in relation to me" and waiting for each of them to reply, or actually looking around to see them is going to take less time than looking at a HUD element that gives you this information instantly? Can you see through buildings and foliage? The STHUD eliminates most of the need for communicating "I'm watching X sector", "I'm around the corner from you" etc. because you get this information straight away by looking at it. It frees up the time it would otherwise take to keep track of your squadmates allowing you to focus more on the enemy as well as where you should be in relation to your squad. 

 

Try to understand.

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I obviously understand what you're saying, I'm trying not to write a wall of text.

But basically you're trying to reduce the amount of immersion by reducing the communication and teamwork required of each and every player. Situational awareness ought to be a skill, not a gift provided by a magical all-seeing circle.

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Situational awareness ought to be a skill, not a gift provided by a magical all-seeing circle.

Agreed. This is basically our bottom line.

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Asking "Where's xXGuyWithLATXx420 at?" is not really a skill.

Situational awareness is a much higher skill than being able to know there's a teammate to your left.

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Wrecker your point seems great but it's flawed. Knowing where your squad-mates are and what they're covering has nothing to do with teamwork. It can be seen as situational awareness, but that should be largely focused at your surroundings not at your squad. Calling it a magical all-seeing-eye also isn't an argument when you have the map 1 second away showing even more info. TheGent also points out that it's obviously not a skill.

 

All I have to do is think about when I play PR how many times squads have no cohesion, how many times people don't notice SL has moved away 30s ago and how nobody notices your building is uncovered because the medic is healing somebody and isn't covering the stairs. The only squads that have any sort of cohesion are those constantly on the move, because they're all simply moving towards a marker. Or the defending squads where SL has to micro-manage every SM's position.

 

PR has been around for many years, yet every time I play it's a reminder that squad cohesion is still very poor. STHud would provide a great opportunity to improve this.

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Yes I agree it is larger than knowing just the teammate next to you, but that is a crucial part of it. And it's also not just asking people where they are. As a squad leader you need to know where your guys are, you need to tell them where to be, and you need to make sure they listen to you.

Obviously you could do all of this with STHud, but it removes all of the challenge of keeping a cohesive squad. I really don't like any feature which will take away responsibility from players to be aware.

Edit: also squad leading is for the most part micro-management.

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Obviously the challenge of keeping squad cohesion is far too difficult because it's so damn rare in PR. Taking some of this responsibility, as you call it, away and focusing on more important stuff like enemies and objectives would be a great thing. But we obviously disagree and I'd love to hear what the developers think.

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It's not that it's too challenging, it's that the game doesn't put enough emphasis on leading. Players will adapt to the game and its requirements

Oh and by the way. I don't believe in having a mini-map a second away with all infantry positions made available. Anything to encourage teamwork, communication and awareness is a plus in my book.

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