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oblivio69

Squad radar

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perhaps a squad radar or compass markers for the real life equivalent 180deg peripheral fov? IRL you dont have eyes in the back of your head, and you DO need to quick check to see how far behind you your buddy is, assuming his footsteps have fallen out of audible range. Problem with squad radar is you get more information than you would in real life, even with the counterbalance of lost sensory input. FOV, ambient noise, and what, smell? Asside from handsignals, which requires a turn and look, what else are you being deprived of for relative spatial awareness?

I dont mind the compromise for the lost peripheral, but if my buddy is going to push through a building and doesnt tell me, it should be a surprise to find him on the other side. also, if a silent attacker neutralizes him via piano wire, knife' or suppressed pistol, having his blip go dark is an unfair advantage against a skilled assasin/operator. soon as that blip goes dark, you know what would be impossible to know otherwise, except by means already implemented ; voice comms/ mic checks

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I have to agree as well. We could use a semicircular hud radar for that, wont consume much space.

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Why are you insisting on making this so hard, just make it 360 as in STHud, it's a game and is great for squad cohesion. For the same reasons I don't want to turn to the side every 5s to check if somebody is covering it I also don't want to 180 to check if our back is covered...

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Why are you insisting on making this so hard, just make it 360 as in STHud, it's a game and is great for squad cohesion. For the same reasons I don't want to turn to the side every 5s to check if somebody is covering it I also don't want to 180 to check if our back is covered...

no, i think you kind of have to do a 180 to check if your back is covered. remember, hud radars are unrealistic to begin with, and they were not in PR. they are being discussed here to augment realism regarding situational awareness. any more than that and you're turning it into a casual minimap.

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really, though.

Why a hud/radar?

because some sensory input is lost in the medium?

What sensory input is lost in the medium?

180deg peripheral.

Footsteps ( maybe,maybe not. most ops wear earpro)

A hand on your back/shoulder.

Smell of another sweaty dude.

peripheral is fixed by 180deg radar, and even then, unless the comp is calculating line of sight, you are getting more than you lost.

the game will include movement audio, and considering youd likely be wearing earpro, you are getting more than you lost.

hand on the shoulder. this is hard to counter, but *how often* are teams stacking up that close? generally only stacking up for breach and clear, which is a short moment where you can *take a hand off your firearm* and follow the breacher in. This manuver always always requires verbal coordination prior. If its calm enough to take your hand off your gun, you can look around for that quick confirm that your team IS stacked up.

Smell: sorry not sorry. you can play with dirty underwear on your face if you think youre missing out on that one.

point: even with a 180deg shortfield "radar", youre getting more than youd have irl.

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the necessity of communication to ensure proper fire coverage as a squad is what makes this different from Battlefield/Solo run-n-gun.

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Which is why this game (gameplay > realism) will have it and ArmA (actual simulation) doesn't have it. Oh wait...

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Which is why this game (gameplay > realism) will have it and ArmA (actual simulation) doesn't have it. Oh wait...

vanilla arma doesnt have it.

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perhaps a squad radar or compass markers for the real life equivalent 180deg peripheral fov? IRL you dont have eyes in the back of your head, and you DO need to quick check to see how far behind you your buddy is, assuming his footsteps have fallen out of audible range. Problem with squad radar is you get more information than you would in real life, even with the counterbalance of lost sensory input. FOV, ambient noise, and what, smell? Asside from handsignals, which requires a turn and look, what else are you being deprived of for relative spatial awareness?

I dont mind the compromise for the lost peripheral, but if my buddy is going to push through a building and doesnt tell me, it should be a surprise to find him on the other side. also, if a silent attacker neutralizes him via piano wire, knife' or suppressed pistol, having his blip go dark is an unfair advantage against a skilled assasin/operator. soon as that blip goes dark, you know what would be impossible to know otherwise, except by means already implemented ; voice comms/ mic checks

 

The compass lacks the ability to portray distance, and also lacks the ability to show you the direction those players are facing. These are things you can easily discern via sight, even in peripheral. For these reasons, I would advocate a "radar" style squad HUD as opposed to the compass. It takes up slightly more room vertically, but not by all that much and also does not use as much horizontal space. It also uses the space it occupies much more effectively; rarely do you need anything more than your current heading with the compass; the radar style gives you a squad list, formation radar, and compass directions. In the future if fireteam coloring is added, the radar style also makes it easier to keep track of your fireteam and keep track of your orientation from the other fireteam.

 

While 180º is your peripheral vision, through subtle noise (breath, gear movement, both not often given dedicated sounds) and touch (when literally at your back, like when stacking up for a CQC breach) you can discern the position of squadmates close behind you, so I would not advocate for a stiff 180º. A compromise in a perfect would be to elongate the back side of the semicircle so that you get information directly behind you for a smaller distance than you do from the front/sides, but that's more work to create than making it a simple shape like a circle/semicircle.

 

The radar has a fixed radius, the STHUD in Arma for instance only shows up to 50m, which is not that large in the grand scheme of things. Even if you have the ability to "see" behind you, it wouldn't be over that much distance that it would be worth worrying about. You can't keep track of your squad over long distances, so you will have to IFF when friendlies are coming into view. It doesn't even have to be 50m in Squad, if it was such a concern, though I would say that 50m to the front and sides is appropriate and 30m is really the lower limit of usefulness.

 

STHUD does not remove friendlies from the HUD immediately when they die. It would give no advantage to finding out that your buddy just died to a ninja. This should definitely be replicated on this implementation as well.

 

I don't think it's worth nearly as much hubbub as people are making about being able to "see" behind you. Yes, I'm aware that the average person doesn't have eyes in the back of their head (good thing I'm a humanoid spider, suckers), but honestly it isn't like it gives you any real advantage and honestly it just makes it significantly easier to coordinate with a group of people you've never played with before. Whereas in reality soldiers and such get to train with one another and establish standard operating procedures to know where any one person should be at any time, and how to communicate their locations to others. We don't have the luxury of the random public player understanding formations, or to call out that they're moving, or to watch their sectors, and this HUD gives us a great opportunity to enhance squad cohesion greatly by keeping everyone more aware of their squad. I really wish that some of you that are so against it truly had the ability to try it, because it is honestly a great addition to the Arma HUD that significantly improves squadplay.

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I think we need to stop arguing to decrease the responsibility of players. I think players, in order to be immersed, need to understand all of the jobs needed of them. This is why I am against the sthud, as it makes situational awareness too easy. This is also why I am for back blast, and why I am for single channel squad leader comms, but that's another thread.

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Very realist gameplay, no radar and mini-map.

 

Squad should be inspired with a simulation elements, not arcade elements.

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yep. i also do like calling out "friendly! dont shoot" and "friendly coming through" in local when i'm moving in on a group of friendlies either upfront or from behind. it greatly adds to the immersion. radars would fuck that up for me.

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Whereas in reality soldiers and such get to train with one another and establish standard operating procedures to know where any one person should be at any time, and how to communicate their locations to others. We don't have the luxury of the random public player understanding formations, or to call out that they're moving, or to watch their sectors, and this HUD gives us a great opportunity to enhance squad cohesion greatly by keeping everyone more aware of their squad. I really wish that some of you that are so against it truly had the ability ]

This is some decent reason. I agree completely that in real life the reason you arent always needing to see 360deg (for us humans) is that you know and trust who you are playing with. That being said, the deeper i run into these suggestion threads the more I hope they make these things a server variable so that we can test establishing a more hardcore ruleset against a group of established players.

I enjoy these discussions. Sorry if come off too belligerent.

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I think we need to stop arguing to decrease the responsibility of players. I think players, in order to be immersed, need to understand all of the jobs needed of them. This is why I am against the sthud, as it makes situational awareness too easy. This is also why I am for back blast, and why I am for single channel squad leader comms, but that's another thread.

yeah, I like where your heads at. I think we need to push for the option to establish hardcore servers and that these are cvars instead of gamewide.

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[snip youtube link]

 

Very realist gameplay, no radar and mini-map.

 

Squad should be inspired with a simulation elements, not arcade elements.

 

Jester814 and their community prefers to enable third person in their games for the very same reasons regarding peripheral vision. It has it's own problem of being able to see over and around walls. Most arma communities recognize the problem here and either enable third person or use STHUD.

 

So, would you like third person in Squad anytime soon? :P

 

yep. i also do like calling out "friendly! dont shoot" and "friendly coming through" in local when i'm moving in on a group of friendlies either upfront or from behind. it greatly adds to the immersion. radars would fuck that up for me.

 

That still isn't gone. People still get tense and don't always have time to check the HUD to see, and the radar does not include teammates outside of your squad, so it's doubly essential when working with people outside of your squad. "Friendly coming in/out" is still commonly shouted in Arma games that use STHUD. I don't imagine it would be any different for Squad.

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This is some decent reason. I agree completely that in real life the reason you arent always needing to see 360deg (for us humans) is that you know and trust who you are playing with. That being said, the deeper i run into these suggestion threads the more I hope they make these things a server variable so that we can test establishing a more hardcore ruleset against a group of established players.I enjoy these discussions. Sorry if come off too belligerent.

 

I don't have any problem with people not understanding, though I will say it is pretty frustrating to try to explain and convince you guys how much of a difference STHUD makes for squadplay when a lot of you have never tried it and are fixated on a radar being "too arcadey". I believe it's truly a great addition for squad cohesion and will not make the game any less tense, hardcore, or realistic after you've really gotten to take it for a test run.

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I don't have any problem with people not understanding, though I will say it is pretty frustrating to try to explain and convince you guys how much of a difference STHUD makes for squadplay when a lot of you have never tried it and are fixated on a radar being "too arcadey". I believe it's truly a great addition for squad cohesion and will not make the game any less tense, hardcore, or realistic after you've really gotten to take it for a test run.

well i've tried it with the tactical battlefield mod for arma 3, and i honestly didnt like it. i can see the benefits it would add of course, but as wrecker has said, it makes things too easy. it's possible for a good player to get all the info the sthud gives, through keeping his eyes open and communicating with his squad, it's what sets the good players apart. having an element that negates that advantage isnt as good as you might think.

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I have played arma 2 with STHUD, but only cause I was setting up the game as a friend directed. It wasnt bad and no doubt its useful information. However, in terms of milsim, it is a heavy handed compensation for the loss of peripheral, and I agree with your chief justification being the lack of experience with a random set of peeps in a pickup game.

I would like to think however, that I will be playing this in protracted engagements with people I know and know how to work with. I *enjoy* the intensity and immersion that follows when I suspect shits gunna go down and I am frantically swiping left and right to maintain adequate SA.

I think full shortfirld radar makes sense in the context of PUBs and random playerbases, but I would like to see and participate more regularly with *MY* squad of friends, and appreciating the challenge that comes from a more sim-like experience and the comms challenge and cohesive teamwork that accompanies that.

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well i've tried it with the tactical battlefield mod for arma 3, and i honestly didnt like it. i can see the benefits it would add of course, but as wrecker has said, it makes things too easy. it's possible for a good player to get all the info the sthud gives, through keeping his eyes open and communicating with his squad, it's what sets the good players apart. having an element that negates that advantage isnt as good as you might think.

 

Tac BF's HUD is similar though as far as I can tell it shows more than just your squad and also has a larger radius; it's not quite as good as STHUD. I would say though, that the goal of the TacBF developers was to increase teamwork in public servers, and they chose to add a HUD like this to further that goal.

 

I disagree that "what sets the good players apart" is their ability to play nanny and constantly check their squad members to make sure they're doing their jobs. I'd way rather cut the monotonous work of being an SL and having to turn around and inspect the squad to check they are covering their sectors and are sticking together and all that nonsense. What makes them good players is formulating strategies, executing tactics, relaying knowledge and working with others.

 

Just think of how many times you've had to tell someone to not cluster up before they eat a frag. How many times someone has fallen behind because they weren't paying attention when the squad was moving out. How many times you've had to check the map to find the medic even though he wasn't that far from you. It's a lot of monotonous reminders that you're in a game and people can't tell people apart or tell that they're 2 feet from eachother if they're both looking outward.

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you do have a point there, and i completely agree with you on the last paragraph. i'm not actually against the sthud itself as much as i'm against a full 360d to 50m radar. i'm ok with a semicircular radar out to 20m, as your peripheral vision wont discern anything beyond that, and you can see what's ahead of you yourself. there still has to be some effort to maintain squad cohesion other than looking at the radar.

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you do have a point there, and i completely agree with you on the last paragraph. i'm not actually against the sthud itself as much as i'm against a full 360d to 50m radar. i'm ok with a semicircular radar out to 20m, as your peripheral vision wont discern anything beyond that, and you can see what's ahead of you yourself. there still has to be some effort to maintain squad cohesion other than looking at the radar.

 

I definitely get where you're coming from. I'd be okay with compromises within reason, though I'm definitely not going to bother arguing deep into the night to figure out the perfect balance. Definitely glad we could reach a level of understanding here, regardless. :)

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