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still seems like a bit much, I think I would end up just deciding to walk backward in an effort to increase view over cover. I personally enjoyed insurgency's way where "Q" and "E" operate left and right lean.

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And you have the option to if you don't want to use the system. But I don't seriously think people would have any real problem at all adjusting to it. It's a very intuitive system when you actually get to use it. I know Arma can be clunky, but they really did this feature right and I think it would be a shame to miss out on a powerful little feature like that.

 

Also, Q/E lean exists in Arma 2 and 3 the same way it functions in Insurgency.

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Ahhh I see. I misinterpreted what you said.Still I'm against it. As I said, controls should stay as simple as possible. Each key on your keyboard should have a distinct use without combining in holding keys down rather than pressing them, using mouse scroll for several things (I'm guessing it'll already be used as a stock standard way to switch weapon slots) and keys having separate functions (W changing stances instead of moving) if held with another key.

 

Even by introducing Q and E as lean (which I'm all for), you're knocking out 2 keys that have traditionally been used as Commorose and Enter. Not that all keys should stay the same as BF2 however those have been pretty dominant features in what previously was and the devs still have to look at ways of making the controls being as fluid and welcoming as possible.

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I think something I'd like to see, and this might just be me, is the removal of the jump button now (Hopefully) theres an engine that can handle geometry and collisions correctly. I wouldn't be opposed to mantling only, if it's practical from a development and gameplay perspective

 

Mantling, lean, crouch, prone, deploying weapons / bipods accurately and peeking over cover.  You'd be onto a winner

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Being able to independantly move your head (look around) and lean left and right is all i'll be looking for really. Simple Sprint or walk is fine. 

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Out of pure curiosity, can I please ask the people who want to be able to look around independently of your weapon - what exactly does this add to the game? Is it simply for immersion, and "because we can now" that you want this feature?

 

Oh and also, on a scale from 1-10, how critical do you rate this feature?

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I want for both reasons honestly. One is if your prone in pr and look around your entire body moves, this makes hiding much harder. The second reason is because it is possible and does add some immersion but not much

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The prone part I understand. The other part I have a hard time understanding, especially in a combat environment, I would at all times have my weapon where I am looking.

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Out of pure curiosity, can I please ask the people who want to be able to look around independently of your weapon - what exactly does this add to the game? Is it simply for immersion, and "because we can now" that you want this feature?

 

 

Because of situational awareness. I'd like to sprint and still be able to look left and right. I'd like to walk in a certain direction and look around without having to correct my direction with A D A D. I'd like to quickly make sure someone is covering my back without having to turn fully only to be surprised by the enemy from front.

 

Same applies to the STHud, I'd like to quickly see if anybody is covering certain direction and if my firebuddy is really just behind me. Without both of these feature you'd either have to trust everybody in your squad (which never woks out) or cover for others all the time again resulting in failure.

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Out of pure curiosity, can I please ask the people who want to be able to look around independently of your weapon - what exactly does this add to the game? Is it simply for immersion, and "because we can now" that you want this feature?

 

Being able to look around you regardless of movement direction is very good for situational awareness.

 

I suggested another system in this thread, where you have "free look" with weapon focus, because free look on its own is generally pretty useless unless people have TrackIR or Oculus Rift. It would deviate from the WASD strafing standard, which would probably make adoption difficult from a player perspective.

 

Mouse look would turn your upper body 90 degrees left/right and up/down, with view frame tilting to give visual feedback to the player.

W and S would move the upper body backwards and forwards.

A and D would rotate the lower body left or right at a default of 360 degrees per second.

Hold Shift for single step lateral movement using A and D in all stances.

Acceleration/Deceleration delay 1/2 second for running, 1/4 second for walking. 1/4 second momentum delay for using A and D keys while running.

 

With this setup, you have free look without losing weapon focus, meaning it's actually useful to keyboard and mouse players. You would still have strafing through singlestep or by having your upper and lower body at a 90 degree angle from each other, and you could look around without altering your movement direction. It would also eliminate movement exploits that are inherent in the standard WASD setup with the mouse dictating direction.

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Dunno, sounds too much like RE tank controls to me, and we all know how well those survived past the late 90's. There are advantages yes, but it splits the controls so each hand has to do two separate things. As is, left hand = walking movement, right hand = looking/turning (which are essentially equivalent in an FPS). With the tank-style setup, it becomes lefthand = walking/turning (two different actions), righthand = looking, and partially resurrects the old "modifier key to strafe", which also died in the mid-90s once mice became popular, because it prevents effective circle-strafing (remember playing Doom with only a keyboard? You could strafe or you could aim, not both simultaneously).

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Dunno, sounds too much like RE tank controls to me, and we all know how well those survived past the late 90's. There are advantages yes, but it splits the controls so each hand has to do two separate things. As is, left hand = walking movement, right hand = looking/turning (which are essentially equivalent in an FPS). With the tank-style setup, it becomes lefthand = walking/turning (two different actions), righthand = looking, and partially resurrects the old "modifier key to strafe", which also died in the mid-90s once mice became popular, because it prevents effective circle-strafing (remember playing Doom with only a keyboard? You could strafe or you could aim, not both simultaneously).

 

 

It prevents effective circle-strafing because that's not a real thing. The objective of the setup is to create a more realistic range of movement while adding functionality that does not exist with the standard WASD strafing setup, while retaining all of the existing functionality. Shift strafing is not utilized in combination with other movement, so it's not an issue.

 

You don't lose weapon focus while looking around.

You can strafe realistically by having the upper and lower body at a 90 degree angle from each other.

You can't exploit an unrealistic range of motion to avoid getting hit.

You don't get the clunky feel of systems like ArmA.

 

But I understand that it would be a jarring change that could put people off playing.

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Out of pure curiosity, can I please ask the people who want to be able to look around independently of your weapon - what exactly does this add to the game? Is it simply for immersion, and "because we can now" that you want this feature?Oh and also, on a scale from 1-10, how critical do you rate this feature?

It has much more to do with situational awareness than immersion or fanciness.Say you're running across a road; you can look down the road and see if there are enemies whithout needing to stop and turn, which can let you dive for cover and avoid an unfortunate death, or keep track of enemy movements while on the move.It can also be handy during combat; Let's say I'm against the wall of a compound, walking along it towards an entrance where I am expecting enemies. If I want to I can check where my friendlies are or double check my surroundings while still keeping my aim fixed on the entrance, making it less likely that I would miss if the enemy were to charge out.Realistically it's probably like a 3/10 importance; it won't kill us if its not there, but if it was it would definitely be a solid improvement to gameplay. It's a very functional feature, not just flashy BS.

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Out of pure curiosity, can I please ask the people who want to be able to look around independently of your weapon - what exactly does this add to the game? Is it simply for immersion, and "because we can now" that you want this feature?

 

Oh and also, on a scale from 1-10, how critical do you rate this feature?

It has several benefits - If you have TrackIR or any headtracking peripherals, it can increase immersion, but also situational awareness. If you want to keep your gun pointed in one direction, but have a look what's behind you, you can with this system regardless of whether you have TIR. It also helps with concealment/stealth - If you have to rotate or twist your body to stay abreast of your situation, it's a very noticeable movement but simply moving your head around can help you maintain a low profile.

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For me this is extremely important to be able to look around and not move your entire body, not only for immersion but being able to look around without poking your weapon everywhere. 

 

but it could be useful like arma to lock your free look by dubbel tapping a button. 

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Yeah!This really can not stay out :)But I like the positions arma3 however is very clumsy even ARMA and clear does not mean it can not be done masterfully by team

Being able to independantly move your head (look around) and lean left and right is all i'll be looking for really. Simple Sprint or walk is fine.

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I'm going to voice opposition to free look on the basis that it further complicates controls while not being absolutely necessary. PR/Squad is already too much of a niche to further complicate easy adoption for new players. If it got added in somewhere down the line though I'd be open to at least trial it and if the devs get it right then it could become a good feature.

Seeing as I've posted about clunkiness in the past my definition of it is anything that impedes the players inability to instantly complete a task (key input from your keyboard to seeing that on your screen). Anything that makes you even wait a second longer than how you can process that choice is impeding the player, as it takes you out of the experience instantly if you're saying 'cmon cmon cmon' in your head waiting for a shit half baked unnecessary enter vehicle animation or incredibly slow and disconnected mantle animation both of which are present in ARMA.

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I'm going to voice opposition to free look on the basis that it further complicates controls while not being absolutely necessary. PR/Squad is already too much of a niche to further complicate easy adoption for new players. If it got added in somewhere down the line though I'd be open to at least trial it and if the devs get it right then it could become a good feature.Seeing as I've posted about clunkiness in the past my definition of it is anything that impedes the players inability to instantly complete a task (key input from your keyboard to seeing that on your screen). Anything that makes you even wait a second longer than how you can process that choice is impeding the player, as it takes you out of the experience instantly if you're saying 'cmon cmon cmon' in your head waiting for a shit half baked unnecessary enter vehicle animation or incredibly slow and disconnected mantle animation both of which are present in ARMA.

 

Did you ever try holding crouch in a helicopter or jet in PR? Freelook already existed in PR, but only for vehicles. It's the same thing; you hold a key, and your mouse turns your head instead of your whole body. When you let go, your view snaps back to your front. I definitely don't think it's difficult to use or understand.

 

I think there are a lot of people in the community that have a phobia of Arma. I can understand; Arma 2 had it's especially clunky systems that scared a lot of people off of the games. But it's kind of sad to think people might be dismissing some of these ideas because of this fear of things that came from Arma. Arma 3 fixed a lot of the clunkiness and improved gameplay, and there a lot of popular casual gamemode servers to testify for that (though it's certainly still got some parts that are clunky). There are a lot of great features to look towards for inspiration, and can adapt and redesign them to fit better within the gameplay of Squad.

 

I guess what I'm getting at is that I hope you aren't dismissing the idea to quickly because it happens to be in Arma.

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Did you ever try holding crouch in a helicopter or jet in PR? Freelook already existed in PR, but only for vehicles. It's the same thing; you hold a key, and your mouse turns your head instead of your whole body. When you let go, your view snaps back to your front. I definitely don't think it's difficult to use or understand.

 

What I'm trying to get at is that it isn't absolutely necessary and should only be added in if the developers get it absolutely right. I'm not completely against it, but I'm opposed to the general idea of it if implemented half baked because it is seen as a requirement. I hope that makes sense haha.

 

I think there are a lot of people in the community that have a phobia of Arma. I can understand; Arma 2 had it's especially clunky systems that scared a lot of people off of the games. 

 

Yeah I'll admit I'm included in that and certainly not ashamed of it. I certainly see where you're coming from. Loved to play ARMA2 a while back for a little amount of time and got into it because of DayZ. But it got very old very quickly, while Project Reality never did. I've played a little bit of ARMA3 and while certainly a massive improvement, those clunky features I experienced in ARMA2 were never completely gone. It is the same in DayZ Standalone which I believe is a great example of how wrong a development team can get it in turning a game mod into a standalone retail product. As much as they've done to get rid of the clunky features that the ARMA engine as a whole, by the very nature of it have, they haven't disappeared and still exist in some form or another. Squad should focus on smoothing out those sort of things first and build on top of that, something which can be done through the way they're going about building Squad from the ground up in UE. Naturally, that may include freelook in the long run and if it works I'd happily back down on my opposition to it.

 

In short, I think all modifications to controls should proceed with caution. I might make a thread about it in the next day or two further fleshing out what I mean by it all. 

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In my honest and very strong opinion, there should only be sprint, walk, crouch and prone stances. A leaning system is something that I wouldn't mind but is also something that I'm not very passionate about (meaning: I don't really care) a free looking system is again something that I wouldn't mind to have in the game.

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Usually, FPS games have 3 instances / firing positions: Stand up, Crouch and Prone. Crouch is usually set as Left Ctrl and Prone as Z. In most games that you have the Run in Left Shift and Walk in Left Ctrl, the Crouch assumes the C button, which I believe will be the case of Squad. But, in some games the button C is used to control weapon parameters, such as Crysis and even PR:BF2.So, I was thinking, what if we have multiple fire position, attached just to one button, instead of the just 3 commons? This way the character will be able to take cover in virtually every place he could, and even return fire! This is how it could be done: When the position button is hold (lets say it's V), you can adjust the firing position with the Mouse Scroll. Scrolling up and down, you progressively change the fire position.Arma 3 have a feature like this, and Dslyecxi explained well how it work, @3:00.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8vrbzNYEwMWhat I am suggesting is pretty much something like this systems, but everything attached to a single button + scroll for simplicity and precision sake._Another suggestion that I would like to make here is Progressive Leaning, where we would use the Middle Mouse Button not just to scroll between the firing positions, but to lean too. You hold the MMB, and drag your mouse to the left or to the right, and you will lean exactly the amount you want, and not a pre-fixed amount of lean like Q or E buttons usually do.What do you guys think?Also, I was going to suggest the possibility to do Progressive Rolling while proned (using lean method in prone position) in another thread, but let just leave it here, and you guys say what you think about it. :)

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