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Jay0321

how are we gonna balance the US Marines?

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Who cares, us army, us marines. its the same stuff anyway.

I'd rather see different nations get added before the us army, us navy, us marine, us planes, us neckbeards get added.

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Aside from the Fallujah map, I would love to see a brand spanking new huge amphibious assault map. That'll give you a different play style than the US army, even if (They won't) they have the same gear. 

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Aside from the Fallujah map, I would love to see a brand spanking new huge amphibious assault map. That'll give you a different play style than the US army, even if (They won't) they have the same gear. 

 

P A V L O V S K

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Who cares, us army, us marines. its the same stuff anyway.

I'd rather see different nations get added before the us army, us navy, us marine, us planes, us neckbeards get added.

103120109-e1407959884523.jpg

*stares in pure hatred*

Lots of haters in here.

+1 for U.S. Marines.

kill

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Lol at the guy saying the US army is the same as the US marines. 

 They have similarities but distinguish from each other in some points.

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 They have similarities but distinguish from each other in some points.

 

 In basically all doctrines. They fight wars in a different way than the US army does. Completely so. 

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Basically they are both US and thus using US weaponry, which are also mostly used in the Army. Factions like Canada/Turkey/Saudi Arabia would not be a lot different, too, since they also use mainly American weaponry.

So it would be a lot better to have completely different nations and weapons, like the UK, France, Germany, China, Israel, Argentina and so on.

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Basically they are both US and thus using US weaponry, which are also mostly used in the Army. Factions like Canada/Turkey/Saudi Arabia would not be a lot different, too, since they also use mainly American weaponry.

So it would be a lot better to have completely different nations and weapons, like the UK, France, Germany, China, Israel, Argentina and so on.

 

 The tactics of the UK, France, Germany, are very similar. They even use weapons made by HK. Israel would be much different. No South American until drug cartels is what I think :P Germany is even replacing the G36 with the Hk416. Which is an m4... as is France. UK might even go that route when they finally get rid of the SA80. A lot of European countries use the same tanks, small arms, and aircraft. They even use similar doctrine. 

 

 The US marines would play differently than the US army because of their vehicles and aircraft being quite a bit different in their roles and doctrine. The doctrine of the militaries in use should be looked at, not what weapons they use. UK, France, and I am not sure of Germany, but they maintain squad and platoon leadership with officers. Lots of good articles about that. The US uses Sergeants and the lieutenants are there to learn from the Sergeants. But that is a pretty significant difference in doctrine by itself. You have the Sergeant squad leader, and the next in line would be the Corporal. 

 

Marines allow you a really different play style because of that amphibious assault. Their helicopters are updated from Vietnam. They primarily use ACOGs on their rifles as they like to go at 400m rather than 300m that the army does. So you're going to have a more optimal firing range of the distance rather than the close. The infantry squad composition is very different than that of the US army. They operate in smaller fireteams of 4 man with 3 in each squad. The US army has two fireteams in a squad. You have a lot of the support weapons already in the marine squad, opposed to the US army requiring a completely different squad for that. 

 

Now I'm an army family, I spent my days among soldiers in bases weening on their patriotism and 5.56. Let's get a marine in here to tell you the differences and correct any sorry army mistakes I've made. 

 

 Don't look at weaponry. Look at the huge carriers that house a small city that attacks a city with amphibious APCs while air dropping in forces. The fire support they get are from naval aircraft and naval guns. 

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Germany is even replacing the G36 with the Hk416. Which is an m4... as is France. UK might even go that route when they finally get rid of the SA80. A lot of European countries use the same tanks, small arms, and aircraft. They even use similar doctrine. 

 

this post is pretty bad.

G36 is a lot of drama but honestly, while it may get replaced in next 10 years, I really don't see it going anywhere. 

 

UK is sticking with the SA80 for the forseeable future. This isn't the 90s anymore.

 

the 3 nations you cited all use different tanks (Leopard, Challenger, Leclerc) and IFVs (Warrior, VBCI, Puma). France uses the Rafale, and the UK and German Eurofighters have many differences.

Doctrine is only superficially similar.

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But he is right at all. USMC is not the "Hey, marpat would be in tune with nature and environment of this province, lets send them instead of multicam guys". USMC is naval infantry. They haven't actually performed amphibious assaults in past 20 years, but it doesn't mean devs can't create this type of military operation in game.

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this post is pretty bad.

G36 is a lot of drama but honestly, while it may get replaced in next 10 years, I really don't see it going anywhere. 

 

UK is sticking with the SA80 for the forseeable future. This isn't the 90s anymore.

 

the 3 nations you cited all use different tanks (Leopard, Challenger, Leclerc) and IFVs (Warrior, VBCI, Puma). France uses the Rafale, and the UK and German Eurofighters have many differences.

Doctrine is only superficially similar.

 

You don't know how to google some stuff do ya to verify what I say? 

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/04/foghorn/germany-officially-ditches-hk-g36-states-accuracy-issues-as-main-complaint/

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/g36-aerger-bundeswehr-bekommt-neue-gewehre-a-1050232.html

 

Your post was way worst. 

 

Those MBTs all perform very similarly to each other. In fact, they use the same gun or the rifled version. 

 

 What difference in doctrine does France and germany have from the UK that will make it play different? The UK will already play similarly to the US army. Lots of similar vehicles. Why a bunch of copy and paste factions with a different skin on their character and weapon? 

 

 Israel is actually very different in how they go about warfare. They are surrounded by enemies and their arsenal reflects that. The Marines attack amphibiously. Ruskies have very different doctrine for vehicles and weapons. China also has a very different doctrine than anybody else. 

 

 Royal Marines replaced it with the C8. What I hear from the people over there is pretty 50/50 love hate relationship with the weapon. You can't go wrong with a C8. So, doesn't look like they will wholly be on the Sa80 train. 

 

 I made a good post on the off topic. Lots of people jumped in and lots of countries are replacing their weapons with some sort of AR15 variant. Really, there is no need for the devs to put time into a lot of these countries when the UK would work just fine for the European fanctions. Let modders make the French and the Germans. Let the developers further what the game brings to the table in terms of what each faction plays different than the other. What playstyle you have to adapt too. Are you assaulting a beach with amphibious APCs and your Abrams tank has to be ferried in one at a time? 

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You don't know how to google some stuff do ya to verify what I say? 

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/04/foghorn/germany-officially-ditches-hk-g36-states-accuracy-issues-as-main-complaint/

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/g36-aerger-bundeswehr-bekommt-neue-gewehre-a-1050232.html

 

Your post was way worst. 

 

Those MBTs all perform very similarly to each other. In fact, they use the same gun or the rifled version. 

 

 

yeah and people I know in the BW say von der Leyen is doing the move because she wants to show she has big proverbial balls as defense minister. I showed them those exact articles, on what... 5 months ago?

 

no, they actually don't. You can't simply rifle a 120mm gun and call it the same thing. The rounds for the Chally's gun are totally different and it has a unique ammo selection (like HESH) that other tank guns won't have.

Leclerc has an autoloader so it would reload faster, it has a theoretical max rof of 12 RPM in design documents.

 

Leopard has different sight layout than the other 2 tanks. They are NOT carbon copies of each other.

and the germans have a much more focus on mechanized warfare than UK and the US. The fact that the 1 of the 3 "branches" in their army is totally dedicated to this reflects this, as opposed to the US army which phased out the 11M MOS a while ago.

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I get your point, Pmikey, and I think you may be right about the doctrines since I have nothing to do with any army and never been a soldier nor made any research in army doctrines. And of course the devs should currently concentrate on game features for the current factions rather than including new factions without completing the old ones. (And that is what they are doing, as they have mentioned quite a few times.)

 

But I don't think, doctrines are something you can implement in a game. Every faction (even insurgents and militia) has squads of 9 guys with a SL. If you would like to apply detailed and varying doctrines the game would be a lot more complicated and imho not more fun to play, especially if you think about every Squadleader has his own "doctrine" or system, that he uses in his squad. The squad system is damn good as it currently is. (Of course there will most likely be tweaks on the distribution of kits in the future.)

 

Concerning the weapons of the European factions: In Germany the G36 will be around for quite a long time still, the press is only attacking the gun so much just to have a drama and sell their news. I know two soldiers, one of them is a sergeant or so, and they are both totally d'accord with the G36.

I don't know about the UK, but France still uses the FAMAS iirc, and the SA80 is a typical UK weapon. Sometimes it doesn't matter what is currently in use or in 5 years. When people think of British soldiers, they think of SA80. And in order to distinguish them from the US, that gun would be the best suiting gun. We don't have to have the exact realistic guns of the real world armies in the game rather than a fun game to play, as long as Americans don't run around with G3s and Russians use M1 Garands. :D

And concerning vehicles, many of the big countries in Europe have their own vehicular systems, so that is rahter an argument in favour of having a few European forces.

 

I understand that people who actually are or were members of a force that is part of the game see mistakes and would like to have it more realistic. And I'm sure the devs feel the same, but you have to keep in mind that this is a game and needs simplifications in order to be producible and playable.

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yeah and people I know in the BW say von der Leyen is doing the move because she wants to show she has big proverbial balls as defense minister. I showed them those exact articles, on what... 5 months ago?

 

no, they actually don't. You can't simply rifle a 120mm gun and call it the same thing. The rounds for the Chally's gun are totally different and it has a unique ammo selection (like HESH) that other tank guns won't have.

Leclerc has an autoloader so it would reload faster, it has a theoretical max rof of 12 RPM in design documents.

 

Leopard has different sight layout than the other 2 tanks. They are NOT carbon copies of each other.

and the germans have a much more focus on mechanized warfare than UK and the US. The fact that the 1 of the 3 "branches" in their army is totally dedicated to this reflects this, as opposed to the US army which phased out the 11M MOS a while ago.

 

 Germany has a focus on defensive warfare. They don't have enough supply for them to an offensive military. Mechanized is the way to go when you don't want a large standing military. That being said, the US mechanized is much larger and has it's own doctrine than the Germans do. That mechanized element is getting quite big with the Stryker. You know the US army was reorganized a little while ago? 

 

I know you can't simply rifle a 120mm gun. Rifled provides different types of ammunition to be fired. Smoothbore gives you that sole anti tank capability. The Abrams, Lerclerc, Challenger 2, and Leopard 2 are all based around the same concept. You can even see that. They all base their armor off of Chobham armor, they are designed to combat Soviet era tanks so they have massive front armors, they all suck vs infantry. Autoloaders usually don't beat out a veteran loader going a 100%. Sure you get a more consistent thing but it's one more thing to break. But that doesn't really make it a different role of a tank. All of the tanks sight layouts are roughly different. They were all designed for one thing. All those T80s, T64s, T62s, T54s, T72s, that the Soviet states had. Good luck penetrating that frontal armor with anything any of those tanks have. Good luck blocking any of the Western MBT 120mm anti tank shells.

 

 UK, France, Germany, and the United states collaborated to make a new MBT. The UK guns were very well used by the US and Germany for a long time. You get lots of design features like the hull from the French and the turret from the US. Eventually you get the German gun. The similarities between the Leo 2 and the Abrams are quite interesting. But what happened is you have all the powers and a super power collaborating to get a MBT out on the field and then you shouldn't be surprised when they all release their own version that has similarities in how they look, speed, electronics, and guns. 

 

 5 months ago is not time enough to replace or even get the process started. Hk416 is a better product than the G36 anyways. Hk beat themselves. Hope they update. 

 

 Your 120mm Smoothbore and Rifled have similar penetration values for AP type rounds. Rifled has a much worst HEAT performance, because smoothbore makes HEATFS not rotate so much giving much higher penetration. HESH does not work against modern vehicles, it is great against buildings though. It's a round that only has a use as HE nowadays. Not like it was used against other tanks, or that the Challenger 2 was used against other tanks.

 

 The 11m MOS was merged with 11b. It's classified from Light and Heavy Infantry. You are light infantry if you are not mechanized infantry. You are heavy infantry if you are mechanized infantry. Same MOS, you are just in a bradley/stryker or you are not. 

 

There's like what, 5000 soldiers in a combat brigade? Couple of Mechanized Infantry? 

 

 

 I am confident in their ability to get differences across factions. There's so much more you can do with this engine you couldn't with PR. I expect we will see it finish up being PR 2.0 and then they will get those finer details in. 

 

 How wonderful would it be to see Marines getting 13 squad members and 3 fireteams and having the fire support within the squad itself? That would play a lot different than the US army building big FOB's with mortars and defenses scattered around. Can't see why not having another faction that has something similar to that. It really could work and space is the limit. 

 

 It is a good thing for you to play factions that are different. Flesh out the ones that play significantly different (I agree with the SA80 being the weapon of choice, just making a point ;) ) from each other, like right now we have the big conventional forces, US and Ruskies. Militia for the in between, hope to see a lot of changes to them, and of course Insurgents will get reworked quite a bit. Throw in Amphibious Marines in there, Israel would be awesome because it really is different. China for a final big build things sit on a hill and shoot big shells at people faction, let Modders deal with the rest. If they want to DLC that's fine. Going after the European states that have largely overflow weapons and vehicles would make things easier with some different skins, it wouldn't give you any sort of quality to the game. Just more things to play around with, that are exactly the same as the other things you are already playing around with but they look different. 

 

Somebody was saying stuff about the Russian airborne using different weapons and vehicles (being air dropped) than the normal army, that might be significantly different to add some new gameplay to it. Interesting scenarios. Especially if it was air dropping onto a city when it was on fire during nighttime. 

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you're missing the point. The german panzergrenadier goes through a different training pipeline relative to his jager and fallschirmjager counterparts.

11Bs all go through the same BCT/AIT or OSUT.

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you're missing the point. The german panzergrenadier goes through a different training pipeline relative to his jager and fallschirmjager counterparts.

11Bs all go through the same BCT/AIT or OSUT.

 

You can't have a different mechanized Infantry. Mechanized is mechanized is mechanized my friend. 

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 I am confident in their ability to get differences across factions. There's so much more you can do with this engine you couldn't with PR. I expect we will see it finish up being PR 2.0 and then they will get those finer details in. 

 

 How wonderful would it be to see Marines getting 13 squad members and 3 fireteams and having the fire support within the squad itself? That would play a lot different than the US army building big FOB's with mortars and defenses scattered around. Can't see why not having another faction that has something similar to that. It really could work and space is the limit. 

 

 It is a good thing for you to play factions that are different. Flesh out the ones that play significantly different (I agree with the SA80 being the weapon of choice, just making a point ;) ) from each other, like right now we have the big conventional forces, US and Ruskies. Militia for the in between, hope to see a lot of changes to them, and of course Insurgents will get reworked quite a bit. Throw in Amphibious Marines in there, Israel would be awesome because it really is different. China for a final big build things sit on a hill and shoot big shells at people faction, let Modders deal with the rest. If they want to DLC that's fine. Going after the European states that have largely overflow weapons and vehicles would make things easier with some different skins, it wouldn't give you any sort of quality to the game. Just more things to play around with, that are exactly the same as the other things you are already playing around with but they look different. 

 

Somebody was saying stuff about the Russian airborne using different weapons and vehicles (being air dropped) than the normal army, that might be significantly different to add some new gameplay to it. Interesting scenarios. Especially if it was air dropping onto a city when it was on fire during nighttime. 

I agree with that part of your post, now that you have explained your point of view more detailed.

 

I still would like to see different tactics and doctrines with completely different factions rather than both US Army and USMC. (Although having a map where they fight each other would be kind of funny :P )

So instead of Army AND Marines, we can have the Army and e.g. amphibious warfare with another countries forces, tank warfare with another one and so on.

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You can't have a different mechanized Infantry. Mechanized is mechanized is mechanized my friend. 

 

I'm just saying there's more focus. Afaik the actual squad structure is a bit different but I don't need like bothering people for details

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I agree with that part of your post, now that you have explained your point of view more detailed.

 

I still would like to see different tactics and doctrines with completely different factions rather than both US Army and USMC. (Although having a map where they fight each other would be kind of funny :P )

So instead of Army AND Marines, we can have the Army and e.g. amphibious warfare with another countries forces, tank warfare with another one and so on.

 

 Yes I agree with that. We know we will see the Marines before the release. I am wondering what kind of country has the same capability as the US navy in assaulting beaches? France still have that? Ima be some googling but your information would be interesting too. 

 

I am sure we will see all of that. Hope we will. I just don't wanna see the devs stop with just the same old PR stuff that is tried true and fun, but they can really easily branch out. Bring in the scenarios. All the scenarios on fire at night time. 

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 Yes I agree with that. We know we will see the Marines before the release. I am wondering what kind of country has the same capability as the US navy in assaulting beaches? France still have that? Ima be some googling but your information would be interesting too. 

 

I am sure we will see all of that. Hope we will. I just don't wanna see the devs stop with just the same old PR stuff that is tried true and fun, but they can really easily branch out. Bring in the scenarios. All the scenarios on fire at night time. 

yeah france have RIM. Russia has similar capability too.

Britain has Royal Marines but they're really quite small.

I'm a fan of adding subfactions within a faction if things are distinctive enough (eg. Airborne unit vs. Stryker unit for US Army)

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 Yes I agree with that. We know we will see the Marines before the release. I am wondering what kind of country has the same capability as the US navy in assaulting beaches? France still have that? Ima be some googling but your information would be interesting too. 

 

I am sure we will see all of that. Hope we will. I just don't wanna see the devs stop with just the same old PR stuff that is tried true and fun, but they can really easily branch out. Bring in the scenarios. All the scenarios on fire at night time. 

I have to admit, I have no information on that topic. It was just an idea. I am also content with the USMC/Navy instead of the Army. My point is that one US force is enough, whether it is the Army or the Navy doesn't matter for me, and that I would also like to see different tactics (just like you) but with different factions as far as it is possible.

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