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What would make a good balance between night vision goggles and the use of flashlights in a night map?

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This is something I'd love to see in game, the conventional armies using NVGs and unconventional armies using other ways, probably flashlights, in the same night battle. 

The problem is how to find a good balance and keep the gameplay enjoyable for both. So, what do you think we could have in game to make it possible and fair? 

 

 

Here is my ideas: For both teams, I think that nights should be really dark, barely visible, making the use of a NGV or a flashlight necessary. Then we need the PROs and CONs for the use of both, but principally strong CONS for NGVs and strong PROS for the flashlights because we mainly think that NGV will be over powered if compared if flashlights. 

 

 

 

NGV

 

PROS

  • You can see in the dark! (duh) 
  • You don't give away your position when using it.
  • You can see infra red lasers (if ever added to the game).

 

CONS 

  • You can get blinded by any strong source of light, be it from the street lamps, inside house lamps and fire or the enemies's flashlights pointed at you (same style of the Battlefield 3's flashlights). 
  • limited field of view (no wide field of view super special operations NVGs)
  • low resolution, hard to spot things far away.
  • You can't aim down optics while using NVGs. 

 

 

Flashlights

 

PROS

 

  • You can see in the dark! (duh)
  • You see things clearly at proximity
  • You can see the general direction your gun is pointing. 
  • You can blind the enemies using NGVs and not blind or get blinded by friends.
  • Can use light to point general directions to friends.
  • You can see things further than somebody using NGVs.
  • Your field of view remains the same. 

CONS

 

  • Well, you give away your position when using it!

 

 

 

 

So... thoughts? 

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I also think disabling gamma option is a must when implementing this. People end up bumping up gamma on night maps and its unfair to the people who want total realism.

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Sounds pretty dope, and you really covered all the possible pros/cons I can think of. 

One major disadvantage/handicap to using NVG's is that you have zero ability to utilize sights/optics while they're active. You will be entirely limited to utilizing your IR laser. The only way to remedy this would be to replace all day-time optics with night optics (PAS-13, etc). I really don't see this being an issue, as those optics suffer from the same issues NVG's face. 

It boils down to making NVG's as shitty as they are in reality. Sure, they help, but there are a lot of times where you really, really wish you weren't wearing them. 

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Gamma shouldn't be a problem for the devs to cancel out because in Arma 3 Desolation, when it's night and you turn your gamma and brightness up, nothing happens.

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Sounds pretty dope, and you really covered all the possible pros/cons I can think of. 

One major disadvantage/handicap to using NVG's is that you have zero ability to utilize sights/optics while they're active. You will be entirely limited to utilizing your IR laser. The only way to remedy this would be to replace all day-time optics with night optics (PAS-13, etc). I really don't see this being an issue, as those optics suffer from the same issues NVG's face. 

It boils down to making NVG's as shitty as they are in reality. Sure, they help, but there are a lot of times where you really, really wish you weren't wearing them. 

 

 

Oh, yeah! Aiming! I forgot about that too, I will add to the list. Maybe you can aim down ironsights but no optics. 

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but they don't have magnification.

And it is perfect. Conventional forces are gonna lose one of their advantages.

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And it is perfect. Conventional forces are gonna lose one of their advantages.

Compatible with mounted night optics, yes. Compatible with a gigantic hunk of plastic hanging off of your face that prevents you from obtaining any form of stock weld, let alone effectively employing said optic, no. 

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Compatible with mounted night optics, yes. Compatible with a gigantic hunk of plastic hanging off of your face that prevents you from obtaining any form of stock weld, let alone effectively employing said optic, no.

Difficult choice, mounted night optic or goggles without magnification. I think it should work.

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Difficult choice, mounted night optic or goggles without magnification. I think it should work.

That's what I was referring to in my above post. Mounted night optics for roles that already have optics, and for those that don't, NVG's that can be raised/lowered at will. There also needs to be a transition time while turning NVGs off and raising them above eye level, though. 

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CONS 

  • You can get blinded by any strong source of light, be it from the street lamps, inside house lamps and fire or the enemies's flashlights pointed at you (same style of the Battlefield 3's flashlights). 
  • limited field of view (no wide field of view super special operations NVGs)
  • low resolution, hard to spot things far away.
  • You can't aim down optics while using NVGs. 

 

 

Depends what is used. Theres quite a lot of stuff in use currently that is autogated, which means you wont get blinded nearly as much. Also stuff like street lamps and lights inside wont do much. If its a monocle, you can still see with your other eye, say you have the NVG over your left eye -> you can still use your other eye. Dunno how well that could be translated into the game though. :D

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Depends what is used. Theres quite a lot of stuff in use currently that is autogated, which means you wont get blinded nearly as much. Also stuff like street lamps and lights inside wont do much. If its a monocle, you can still see with your other eye, say you have the NVG over your left eye -> you can still use your other eye. Dunno how well that could be translated into the game though. :D

As far as conventional infantry goes right now, The Army and Marine Corps are still issuing PVS-14s. 

You WILL be blinded if bright light comes anywhere near your eyeball. Street lights, etc. aren't blinding, unless your face is glued to it, but the washout you experience is so severe from around 75 meters-closer (depending on the intensity of the light, obviously) that your NVG becomes useless. Also, yes, you can turn it off and leave it down in front of your face, but to simulate, close yourself in your closet, cover one eye, and see what kind of situational awareness you can maintain. 

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I think while it sounds cool, the concept as a whole wouldn't work in a "competitive" or "balanced" setting. See ARMA as an example, regardless of its visual fidelity and tech, the concept is fairly the same.

 

Without throwing the words "in real life" everywhere.. as mentioned in previous threads, some related and some unrelated to this topic at hand, the ratio of casualties / forces being killed irl is hugely disproportionate for a game that is trying to become competitive and stay grounded in a balanced experience. Sure, it would definitely suit a specific game mode in the future, but that game mode would have to be designed with some forces using NVG's and others flashlights, flares and environmental light sources.

 

Also, while using flashlights and flares can give away your position, another con for it is that it provides limited visibility compared to NVGs. Yes, they don't give you infinite vision, but at the same time it's a lot more compared to just toughing it out in the dark.

 

Again, the concept is the same across games. You can test it in other games, it won't be the exact same but it remains similar enough to test out the ability of a player seeing using NVGs and a player seeing using flashlights, flares etc.

 

All in all, I'd like to see it present in a specific game mode designed around the idea. I wouldn't like to see it in the standard modes though.

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Welp, as someone who has both and uses / used both, I'd like to clear up some misconceptions:

 

1. Modern NODs don't blind you with bright light. It's called autogating. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what the hell they're talking about. Does it make them pretty useless due to bloom and such? sure... but it's not going to blind you...

2. No one uses their optics with the NODs on their head - if it's on their head they use IR lasers for aiming, it the NODs are on their weapons then you have to hold it up and aim to view the night vision. If it's an NV compatible sight then the tube is mounted behind it - if it's on your head you use IR lasers.

 

How to make it realistic and implement it?

-fill cities with lighting at night, and rooms with lighting or bright sources that make NODs not the best choice

-Implement a "one eye" design to using NODs. What do I mean? Half your FOV is lost if you view through your NODs for full vision. If you open both eyes you get a mixed, but dimmer view with NODs.

-Give flashlights to all. Flashlights will temporarily bloom NODs and disrupt your vision (again won't blind you though).

-Design the maps that require teams with NODs to come into the light sources to cap points (no sitting outside camping with NODs)

 

You balance it out this way, and players figure things out. When implemented as close to real life as possible, then it's evenly balanced.

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Without throwing the words "in real life" everywhere.. as mentioned in previous threads, some related and some unrelated to this topic at hand, the ratio of casualties / forces being killed irl is hugely disproportionate for a game that is trying to become competitive and stay grounded in a balanced experience. Sure, it would definitely suit a specific game mode in the future, but that game mode would have to be designed with some forces using NVG's and others flashlights, flares and environmental light sources.

 

All in all, I'd like to see it present in a specific game mode designed around the idea. I wouldn't like to see it in the standard modes though.

 

The number one reason the ratio of casualties is so high irl is because the opposing side doesn't grasp the technology of NODs, nor do they know they're using them. It wouldn't be the same in a game where people knew the opposing side were actively using them, and therefore trying to counter them.

 

I agree with the second point about a specific game mode, but believe it could be incorporated into the current game mode with specially made maps.

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Welp, as someone who has both and uses / used both, I'd like to clear up some misconceptions:

 

1. Modern NODs don't blind you with bright light. It's called autogating. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what the hell they're talking about. Does it make them pretty useless due to bloom and such? sure... but it's not going to blind you...

2. No one uses their optics with the NODs on their head - if it's on their head they use IR lasers for aiming, it the NODs are on their weapons then you have to hold it up and aim to view the night vision. If it's an NV compatible sight then the tube is mounted behind it - if it's on your head you use IR lasers.

 

How to make it realistic and implement it?

-fill cities with lighting at night, and rooms with lighting or bright sources that make NODs not the best choice

-Implement a "one eye" design to using NODs. What do I mean? Half your FOV is lost if you view through your NODs for full vision. If you open both eyes you get a mixed, but dimmer view with NODs.

-Give flashlights to all. Flashlights will temporarily bloom NODs and disrupt your vision (again won't blind you though).

-Design the maps that require teams with NODs to come into the light sources to cap points (no sitting outside camping with NODs)

 

You balance it out this way, and players figure things out. When implemented as close to real life as possible, then it's evenly balanced.

They're not misconceptions. It's quite literally, true. PVS-14s do not consistently autogate. In fact, I'd be willing to put money on it that they DON'T more often than they DO. To show up and claim that "anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what the hell they're talking about" is pretty ignorant of you. I've spent more nights behind NVG's than I would ever like to have. 

Your second point is 100% true, but you don't have to be a complete dick about it, especially since you have NO idea who you're addressing, because internet. 

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The number one reason the ratio of casualties is so high irl is because the opposing side doesn't grasp the technology of NODs, nor do they know they're using them. It wouldn't be the same in a game where people knew the opposing side were actively using them, and therefore trying to counter them.

 

I agree with the second point about a specific game mode, but believe it could be incorporated into the current game mode with specially made maps.

Also, if you're implying that Talib John doesn't understand what NVG's are, or know that we use them, YOU don't know what the hell you're talking about. 

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They're not misconceptions. It's quite literally, true. PVS-14s do not consistently autogate. In fact, I'd be willing to put money on it that they DON'T more often than they DO. To show up and claim that "anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what the hell they're talking about" is pretty ignorant of you. I've spent more nights behind NVG's than I would ever like to have. 

Your second point is 100% true, but you don't have to be a complete dick about it, especially since you have NO idea who you're addressing, because internet. 

 

Meh, still standing by it's a misconception - unless you have a non-autogated unit, light sources will not "blind" you through NODs. (there's a mix of both right now currently issued)

 

No one is being a dick, but there's a LOT of misconceptions about how NODs work all throughout the gaming world.

 

.....I'd also say you have no idea who you're addressing either... because again... internet ;-) My opinions come from real world knowledge. 

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I also think disabling gamma option is a must when implementing this. People end up bumping up gamma on night maps and its unfair to the people who want total realism.

You can't really fix this. I, for example, have hotkeys which change my gamma settings through the NVIDIA Control Panel. The game can't stop me from doing so.

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Also, if you're implying that Talib John doesn't understand what NVG's are, or know that we use them, YOU don't know what the hell you're talking about. 

 

Talib John doesn't understand for the most part. Some smart ones (rare) sure - majority of em? Nope. 

 

Throw out any other 3rd world shitbags we come up against - you think they grasp it or have knowledge of how to counter them? Yeah.... no

 

Lastly, if you're trying to start a dick swinging contest then this isn't the place.

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Meh, still standing by it's a misconception - unless you have a non-autogated unit, light sources will not "blind" you through NODs. (there's a mix of both right now currently issued)

 

No one is being a dick, but there's a LOT of misconceptions about how NODs work all throughout the gaming world.

 

.....I'd also say you have no idea who you're addressing either... because again... internet ;-) My opinions come from real world knowledge. 

I think it's pretty obvious that nobody means that you will be blinded permanently, or even "blinded" temporarily. It's a generalization. They mean you won't be able to see. Which is true. You won't. 

Your real world experience must be quite limited if you have never experienced this. 

Talib John doesn't understand for the most part. Some smart ones (rare) sure - majority of em? Nope. 

 

Throw out any other 3rd world shitbags we come up against - you think they grasp it or have knowledge of how to counter them? Yeah.... no

 

Lastly, if you're trying to start a dick swinging contest then this isn't the place.

Hombre, you're the one that came into this thread boasting extensive "real world experience", which you proceeded to immediately discredit by being an ass, while simultaneously spouting things that aren't true. 

Run along now. 

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Well, if the game doesn't supply us with an effective and consistent way of countering NVGs then the real life intelligence or knowledge of insurgents is pretty irrelevant...

 

That's a simple fact, regardless of real world experience. We're talking about a video game here, lets try to think about it that way. Not everyone has to or can mirror the real world. :D

 

Edit: I also think implementing such features would of course require some form of work on the current lighting.. which might change once trueSky is implemented!

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