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Hi guys! I'm Echo, and I'm very new to the forums! I'm a former player of PR and loved it, then heard about this and decided to check it out. One thing I've noticed from every video I've seen of Squad is this : the crazy amount of recoil. Being a Real Steel shooter, I was quite bugged, for a lack of words, at the recoil. The 5.56 doesn't have that much kick to it! Also, the 5.45 isn't that bad either. I suggest that you make the guns move backwards towards the player. However, I do understand that there is muzzle rise. This is really only seen on sutained fully automatic fire, so having your gun jump all over the place when you shoot a 3 shot burst isn't quite realistic.

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Hi guys! I'm Echo, and I'm very new to the forums! I'm a former player of PR and loved it, then heard about this and decided to check it out. One thing I've noticed from every video I've seen of Squad is this : the crazy amount of recoil. Being a Real Steel shooter, I was quite bugged, for a lack of words, at the recoil. The 5.56 doesn't have that much kick to it! Also, the 5.45 isn't that bad either. I suggest that you make the guns move backwards towards the player. However, I do understand that there is muzzle rise. This is really only seen on sutained fully automatic fire, so having your gun jump all over the place when you shoot a 3 shot burst isn't quite realistic.

I totally agree with you, at least someone thinks the same as me.

It's still WIP, the recoil will still be tweaked.

But don't know if the dev will be more realism >>>>> gameplay or vice versa regarding recoil

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There is a few military advisers on the dev team and they have mentioned that they know about the recoil and it's WIP and will be tuned/tweaked, I doubt they will let it be too inaccurate as it's their job to advise on that stuff :)

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As far as I understand, at this point in the Alpha stage all bullets = "bullet", so once they start differentiating between calibers, damage models etc, these things will all get flushed out. This game, as awesome as it already looks, is *pre-alpha*. I understand how stoked you can be, but its got a long way to go before we start seeing anything close to a complete project.

 

Welcome to the forums and keep jumping in to these conversations and you'll get a better idea of where things stand and where they are headed :D

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Sweet, a dev replied! Great to know you guys really are going for realism!

hehe, I am certainly not a Developer. I'm just crowd control ;)

Stick around tho, the devs are here.

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The guns kick like a horse, but I loved the feeling of them and the recoil aint that bad once you're in control, it looks way worse on video. They can give me this over the toyguns battlefield has anyday.

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The guns kick like a horse, but I loved the feeling of them and the recoil aint that bad once you're in control, it looks way worse on video. They can give me this over the toyguns battlefield has anyday.

I feel that my duty is disagree, they stil need to be adjusted. Especially "rebels" Kalashnikovs are uncontrollable. The gun play atm. might feel real, but compared how smoothly and easy are the real guns to control especially for quick semi fire the current (pre-alpha develop. build) state isn't there (control and some accuracy in close range even in standing position while it is the most unaccurate shooting stance). This is from someones mouth who have official mil training with 7.62x39 AK variant and class 1 marksman badge.

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I feel that my duty is disagree, they stil need to be adjusted. Especially "rebels" Kalashnikovs are uncontrollable. The gun play atm. might feel real, but compared how smoothly and easy are the real guns to control especially for quick semi fire the current (pre-alpha develop. build) state isn't there (control and some accuracy in close range even in standing position while it is the most unaccurate shooting stance). This is from someones mouth who have official mil training with 7.62x39 AK variant and class 1 marksman badge.

 

Yes, but gameplay should overtrump realism in this situation. It needs to be made a bit more difficult then irl.

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A little feedback from my first test session re gunplay, recoil etc.

 

First off good job Devs, really impressed.  I understand this is all a work in progress obviously.

 

General gunplay.

 

It seems as if single shot is being promoted as the preferred method of engagement, which I love and is obviously more realistic.  To enable that to be a reality the ability to land rapid single shots at appropriate ranges needs to be improved.  It should also be viable to land rapid single shots on a mansize target whilst moving towards the target.  At present the recoil is a bit overcooked as others have mentioned and noted.  

Secondly the recoil impulse and muzzle climb that is present feels disjointed, disconnected somehow from the actual firing of the weapon.  I can't really explain it much better than that other than to say it feels like it occurs as a very separate event to the weapon discharging, as if there is a buffer frame in the animation or something.  It definitely feels to me like something that happens distinctly after the weapon is fired, as opposed to part of the process of the weapon discharging.  Hope that make at least some sense and that there is a way to 'tighten' that process up a bit.  That is directly relevant to the ability to land rapid single shots in succession and promoting a realistic method of engagement and driving that kind of gameplay.  

 

I am glad to see the ineffectiveness of automatic fire at engaging point targets is being represented, that should again help drive better quality play.

 

I would caution against using excessive recoil (on all fire modes) as a tool to somehow improve gameplay as is apparently being suggested.  Don't get me wrong I am not advocating some riduculous zero recoil set up so we can pew pew lazor people at a dead run lol, just suggesting that implementing a punitive recoil system won't improve gameplay.  What it may do is frustrate players, confuse them when a more delicate balance between 'realism & gameplay' is struck elsewhere and potentially create the type of gameplay we have seen in the past where you either 'camp' or tard rush on full auto shooting at your opponents feet, letting the recoil take you up on target and put the middle 10 rounds of your magazine into your opponent, the first 10 in the floor, the last 10 into a passing seagull.  Watch enough old PR videos of people shooting G3's into the floor in CQB and you'll see what I mean.

 

I've zero experience of creating a recoil system or a game for that matter lol so apologies in advance but off the top of my head I would think that something along the lines of a time based recoil multiplier with a reset to centre might work ok.  Essentially something like an M4 would have a realistic pull to the upper right on single shot.  This would reset to centre or close to it after each shot.  To make rapid successive single shots you would need to manage your shot string timing to allow for the reset.  If you spammed the trigger the reset would not have time to process so you would continue to climb off centre.  You could wrestle the recoil down however this would take more skill and would definitely detract from fine aiming, thus rendering the technique ineffective at range but workable in CQB.  Furthermore the target proximity in CQB would reduce the requirement to aggressively counter recoil as a 3 shot string for example would be unlikely to drive you off a man size target at that range.  Again apologies if this is how the current system works already, not a game designer/coder and only had a little time with the game so far.

 

Arma 3 has done a decent job of its shooting mechanics, balancing CQB and ranged shooting, particularly since the latest refinements. It feels good to be rewarded for using disciplined, realistic shooting techniques in CQB in particular and promoting single shot/realistic techniques and practices would drive better gameplay.  Displaying precision and control in CQB takes skill, actually makes 'sense' to the realistic player, is immersive and cuts down on fratricide.  As I've mentioned before any system that inadvertently prevents rapid single shot engagements usually ends up encouraging the 'rush and spray' style CQB gameplaym that is of little interest to me personally and somewhat at odds with the apparent goals of the game.

 

That's all I have for now, keep up the good work and thank you for the opportunity to help test what is shaping up to be an epic new game.  Good job.

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It seems as if single shot is being promoted as the preferred method of engagement, which I love and is obviously more realistic.  To enable that to be a reality the ability to land rapid single shots at appropriate ranges needs to be improved.  It should also be viable to land rapid single shots on a mansize target whilst moving towards the target.  At present the recoil is a bit overcooked as others have mentioned and noted.  

Secondly the recoil impulse and muzzle climb that is present feels disjointed, disconnected somehow from the actual firing of the weapon.  I can't really explain it much better than that other than to say it feels like it occurs as a very separate event to the weapon discharging, as if there is a buffer frame in the animation or something.  It definitely feels to me like something that happens distinctly after the weapon is fired, as opposed to part of the process of the weapon discharging.  Hope that make at least some sense and that there is a way to 'tighten' that process up a bit.  That is directly relevant to the ability to land rapid single shots in succession and promoting a realistic method of engagement and driving that kind of gameplay.  

 

I am glad to see the ineffectiveness of automatic fire at engaging point targets is being represented, that should again help drive better quality play.

 

I would caution against using excessive recoil (on all fire modes) as a tool to somehow improve gameplay as is apparently being suggested.  Don't get me wrong I am not advocating some riduculous zero recoil set up so we can pew pew lazor people at a dead run lol, just suggesting that implementing a punitive recoil system won't improve gameplay.  What it may do is frustrate players, confuse them when a more delicate balance between 'realism & gameplay' is struck elsewhere and potentially create the type of gameplay we have seen in the past where you either 'camp' or tard rush on full auto shooting at your opponents feet, letting the recoil take you up on target and put the middle 10 rounds of your magazine into your opponent, the first 10 in the floor, the last 10 into a passing seagull.  Watch enough old PR videos of people shooting G3's into the floor in CQB and you'll see what I mean.

 

I've zero experience of creating a recoil system or a game for that matter lol so apologies in advance but off the top of my head I would think that something along the lines of a time based recoil multiplier with a reset to centre might work ok.  Essentially something like an M4 would have a realistic pull to the upper right on single shot.  This would reset to centre or close to it after each shot.  To make rapid successive single shots you would need to manage your shot string timing to allow for the reset.  If you spammed the trigger the reset would not have time to process so you would continue to climb off centre.  You could wrestle the recoil down however this would take more skill and would definitely detract from fine aiming, thus rendering the technique ineffective at range but workable in CQB.  Furthermore the target proximity in CQB would reduce the requirement to aggressively counter recoil as a 3 shot string for example would be unlikely to drive you off a man size target at that range.  Again apologies if this is how the current system works already, not a game designer/coder and only had a little time with the game so far.

 

Please listen to this person!

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The guy in the video is

A. huge. Body size and strength has big impact on ability to control recoil

B. while he managed to control the recoil, I doubt he would have hit a damn thing at 100m

However, I would agree that recoil needs to match real weapon characteristics as much as possible. Part of the reason for increasing recoil is because the game can't account for other factors which effect accuracy in real life. These are your breathing, trigger finger control (as in not pulling the weapon to the side when firing), shaky arms, body balance and stance, etc.

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However, I would agree that recoil needs to match real weapon characteristics as much as possible. Part of the reason for increasing recoil is because the game can't account for other factors which effect accuracy in real life. These are your breathing, trigger finger control (as in not pulling the weapon to the side when firing), shaky arms, body balance and stance, etc.

 

 

"I couldn't agree with you more!"...

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A little feedback from my first test session re gunplay, recoil etc.

 

First off good job Devs, really impressed.  I understand this is all a work in progress obviously.

 

General gunplay.

 

It seems as if single shot is being promoted as the preferred method of engagement, which I love and is obviously more realistic.  To enable that to be a reality the ability to land rapid single shots at appropriate ranges needs to be improved.  It should also be viable to land rapid single shots on a mansize target whilst moving towards the target.  At present the recoil is a bit overcooked as others have mentioned and noted.  

Secondly the recoil impulse and muzzle climb that is present feels disjointed, disconnected somehow from the actual firing of the weapon.  I can't really explain it much better than that other than to say it feels like it occurs as a very separate event to the weapon discharging, as if there is a buffer frame in the animation or something.  It definitely feels to me like something that happens distinctly after the weapon is fired, as opposed to part of the process of the weapon discharging.  Hope that make at least some sense and that there is a way to 'tighten' that process up a bit.  That is directly relevant to the ability to land rapid single shots in succession and promoting a realistic method of engagement and driving that kind of gameplay.  

 

I am glad to see the ineffectiveness of automatic fire at engaging point targets is being represented, that should again help drive better quality play.

 

I would caution against using excessive recoil (on all fire modes) as a tool to somehow improve gameplay as is apparently being suggested.  Don't get me wrong I am not advocating some riduculous zero recoil set up so we can pew pew lazor people at a dead run lol, just suggesting that implementing a punitive recoil system won't improve gameplay.  What it may do is frustrate players, confuse them when a more delicate balance between 'realism & gameplay' is struck elsewhere and potentially create the type of gameplay we have seen in the past where you either 'camp' or tard rush on full auto shooting at your opponents feet, letting the recoil take you up on target and put the middle 10 rounds of your magazine into your opponent, the first 10 in the floor, the last 10 into a passing seagull.  Watch enough old PR videos of people shooting G3's into the floor in CQB and you'll see what I mean.

 

I've zero experience of creating a recoil system or a game for that matter lol so apologies in advance but off the top of my head I would think that something along the lines of a time based recoil multiplier with a reset to centre might work ok.  Essentially something like an M4 would have a realistic pull to the upper right on single shot.  This would reset to centre or close to it after each shot.  To make rapid successive single shots you would need to manage your shot string timing to allow for the reset.  If you spammed the trigger the reset would not have time to process so you would continue to climb off centre.  You could wrestle the recoil down however this would take more skill and would definitely detract from fine aiming, thus rendering the technique ineffective at range but workable in CQB.  Furthermore the target proximity in CQB would reduce the requirement to aggressively counter recoil as a 3 shot string for example would be unlikely to drive you off a man size target at that range.  Again apologies if this is how the current system works already, not a game designer/coder and only had a little time with the game so far.

 

Arma 3 has done a decent job of its shooting mechanics, balancing CQB and ranged shooting, particularly since the latest refinements. It feels good to be rewarded for using disciplined, realistic shooting techniques in CQB in particular and promoting single shot/realistic techniques and practices would drive better gameplay.  Displaying precision and control in CQB takes skill, actually makes 'sense' to the realistic player, is immersive and cuts down on fratricide.  As I've mentioned before any system that inadvertently prevents rapid single shot engagements usually ends up encouraging the 'rush and spray' style CQB gameplaym that is of little interest to me personally and somewhat at odds with the apparent goals of the game.

 

That's all I have for now, keep up the good work and thank you for the opportunity to help test what is shaping up to be an epic new game.  Good job.

Some quality input, good to hear from you Wicks.

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A great way to replicate real recoil is to move the gun closer to the player's camera, while having the gun move in another direction at the same time (Ex: back and left, back and diagonal)

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Hi guys! I'm Echo, and I'm very new to the forums! I'm a former player of PR and loved it, then heard about this and decided to check it out. One thing I've noticed from every video I've seen of Squad is this : the crazy amount of recoil. Being a Real Steel shooter, I was quite bugged, for a lack of words, at the recoil. The 5.56 doesn't have that much kick to it! Also, the 5.45 isn't that bad either. I suggest that you make the guns move backwards towards the player. However, I do understand that there is muzzle rise. This is really only seen on sutained fully automatic fire, so having your gun jump all over the place when you shoot a 3 shot burst isn't quite realistic.

+1 To all of this... 

Just side note... Web guy/dev Add a up-vote button to the Forums for easy "+1" so you can get some easy numbers on good suggestions. 

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Nothing has been adjusted in a meaningful way yet. As far as I know, they're all placeholder values. Refinements will be made to game play mechanics in due time. Plenty of military advisors either on the team or giving input, so dont worry they're well aware of how things should feel

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Hi guys! I'm Echo, and I'm very new to the forums! I'm a former player of PR and loved it, then heard about this and decided to check it out. One thing I've noticed from every video I've seen of Squad is this : the crazy amount of recoil. Being a Real Steel shooter, I was quite bugged, for a lack of words, at the recoil. The 5.56 doesn't have that much kick to it! Also, the 5.45 isn't that bad either. I suggest that you make the guns move backwards towards the player. However, I do understand that there is muzzle rise. This is really only seen on sutained fully automatic fire, so having your gun jump all over the place when you shoot a 3 shot burst isn't quite realistic.

yes and also one thing that does kindof annoy me in the videos is the weapon sway. Now im not experienced at shooting or anything but I have held a replica arisoft gun of a m4 and I can't imagine that the diffence would be that much. now I dont have such a huge weapon sway at all

 

How are you supposed to hit target at approx 200 to 300 meters out with this kind of sway...

https://youtu.be/q1bQGuB_TK8?t=5m25s

 

But if it is a realistic thing then I guess we just have to learn to shoot with it

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Again, sway and recoil are somewhat exaggerated to compensate for the human factors that the game can't account for. If they didn't, every gun would be like a laser and take no skill IMO

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Again, sway and recoil are somewhat exaggerated to compensate for the human factors that the game can't account for. If they didn't, every gun would be like a laser and take no skill IMO

Well i think that anybody with an m4 and a Red dot or acog can easily hit static Target at 200+m in normal condition in semi auto. Shooting at 200+m in semi auto but with iron sight is another deal as you have to first correctly adjust your sight where as with an reddot it doesnt Matter where your eyes position are because it Will always display the same target ( faster Target acquisition ). You i d Rather have realistic recoil but implementing balistic physics depending on caliber, temperature, pressure ( shooting in Afghanistan at 8000 feets and at 35+ deg Celsius is not the same as shooting near sea level in Siberia at -30 deg Celsius, the bullet drop will be way greater in siberia.) this will make the player to adjust their aim depending on the map environment. Besides add also the procession effect where the trajectory of the bullet will curve because of the high rotating angular speed of the bullet... These are just mathematics equation, it shouldn't require 1000 of codes lines and shouldn't affect the Fps much . Also make range of engagement longer (200-500+m), good luck trying to take down an enemy at that range if all the ballistic feature ahead are implemented with just an iron sight or red dot and even with realistic low vertical recoil.

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Well i think that anybody with an m4 and a Red dot or acog can easily hit static Target at 200+m in normal condition in semi auto. Shooting at 200+m in semi auto but with iron sight is another deal as you have to first correctly adjust your sight where as with an reddot it doesnt Matter where your eyes position are because it Will always display the same target ( faster Target acquisition ). You i d Rather have realistic recoil but implementing balistic physics depending on caliber, temperature, pressure ( shooting in Afghanistan at 8000 feets and at 35+ deg Celsius is not the same as shooting near sea level in Siberia at -30 deg Celsius, the bullet drop will be way greater in siberia.) this will make the player to adjust their aim depending on the map environment. Besides add also the procession effect where the trajectory of the bullet will curve because of the high rotating angular speed of the bullet... These are just mathematics equation, it shouldn't require 1000 of codes lines and shouldn't affect the Fps much . Also make range of engagement longer (200-500+m), good luck trying to take down an enemy at that range if all the ballistic feature ahead are implemented with just an iron sight or red dot and even with realistic low vertical recoil.

Exactly. Gravity exerts a constant force no matter where in the world you are. However, air temperature and pressure, both of which affect air density, will exert varying frictional forces which oppose the forward velocity of the bullet. So when you shoot a bullet in low density air, it will have a higher velocity when it reaches its target and a result, gravitational forces have had less time to act on it, so less drop. Higher density air will have the opposite effect. However, at medium range engagements, these effects are negligible I would think.

My guess is the devs will add trajectory physics and maybe drag but I doubt such things as coriolis effect, spin drift, or any of the more complex stuff. Not because they can't do it but because because it may take an unreasonable amount of coding and are negligible for most medium range encounters. Or not, I'm no coder.

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