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Karm

'Hardcore' realism settings/mod ideas

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I'm working on a list of guidelines for squads that would be up for trying this on current, live servers.

 

        - disablewidgets, disableHUD: no compass, no ammo indicator, no stamina bar, no voice channel name indicators, no nametags on friendlies
        - Squad name: "HC No-HUD attempt (MIC)"
        - Teach all squad members:
                - Question: "ID?" (local) -> Answer: "[Name], [Kit]"
                - Identify yourself before talking on squad channel (this is [..], blah blah)
                - Relative enemy callouts when moving (front, left/right front, left/right flank, left/right back, back)

                - Use landscape markers or compass bearings for callouts when on overwatch or defending
                - Learn the map bearings (N E S W) relative to the environment on defence objectives when defending
                - TRIPLE CHECK YOUR TARGETS
        - Ask Squad leaders to identify their squad before their messages, inform them that you're playing hardcore / HUDless
        - Rule/guideline: only use map out of combat & when not moving, and only once per minute or unless needed for SL channel coordination. (Just try your best to use it as little as possible!)

        - Rule/guideline: map markers are allowed to plot out a direction of approach or attack (have a little sit-down with your squad while you show them your plan!). They should not be used in-combat to mark enemies, because use of the map is mainly for out-of-combat situations. Call out bearings or landscape features instead.

        - Rule/guideline: people on overwatch (when not in combat/engaging) are allowed to use the map grid to call out enemy movements.
        - Rule: only wipe as a full squad. Wait out the full timer of the medic revive, or until the whole squad is dead. If you're dead-dead and the squad is still up, ask permission to respawn or wait until the next rally. One wipe = one fail.

        - Guideline: Keep line of sight. Don't get lost. You should always be able to find your team without peeking on the map.

        - Guideline: Use local chat a lot. You'll know better where your mates are.

        - Rule/guideline: only experienced players. This is not something for new players.

 

        - Suggestion: fireteams-based squad, IDing callouts based on fireteam rather than person.

 

I'm sure more will follow once we try this out seriously.

Any more suggestions?

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I'm working on a list of guidelines for squads that would be up for trying this.

 

        - disablewidgets, disableHUD

        - Squad name: "HC No-HUD attempt (MIC)"

        - Teach all squad members:

                - Q: "ID?" (local) -> A: "[Name], [Kit]"

                - Identify yourself before talking on squad channel (this is [..], blah blah)

                - Relative enemy callouts when moving (front, left/right front, left/right flank, left/right back, back)

                - Use landscape markers for callouts when on overwatch or defending

                - Learn map bearings (N E S W) on defence objectives when defending

                - CHECK YOUR TARGETS

        - Ask Squad leaders to identify their squad before their messages, inform them that you're playing hardcore / HUDless

        - Rule/guideline: only use map out of combat & when not moving, and only once per minute or unless needed for SL channel coordination. (Just try your best to use it as little as possible!)

        - Rule: only wipe as a full squad. Wait out the full timer of the medic revive, or until the whole squad is dead. If you're dead-dead and the squad is still up, ask permission to respawn or wait until the next rally. One wipe = one fail.

 

I'm sure more will follow once I try this out seriously.

Any more suggestions?

 

Looks good. 

 

I would add, that sometimes (situational dependant) it would be beneficial for SL to drop to crouch to reference the map whislt the squad continue their maneuver.  

 

If you're wanting some assistance, I'd be happy to jump in and try this with you.

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Looks good. 

 

I would add, that sometimes (situational dependant) it would be beneficial for SL to drop to crouch to reference the map whislt the squad continue their maneuver.  

 

If you're wanting some assistance, I'd be happy to jump in and try this with you.

I've updated my list with some more map usage guidelines.

 

How about getting a squad together to try it this evening (9 feb), around 7PM GMT? (8PM CET)

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Hm with this you will find new stuff for squad leading. 

For squad leader it will be extremely hard to identify who is where. 

Therefor you should setup Fire teams and assign direct command. 

You are squad leader and Two fire teams. And each fire team have their orders how to react in situations. 

Because you cannot waste time with figuring out who is at your left and who is at your right and "hey you at right cover us" well thats unclear if you will have at your right 6 guys. 

Faster is FT1 flank right FT2 stay and cover. Front and front front left AMG watch house at front left. And you should believe in to your FT leaders that they will make it. In this case you dont need to care about names. And you limit it to 2 elements. Its faster for Squad leader. And Fireteam leader is your left and right hands. 

 

Same for reporting. FT 1 can report and you will immediately know that FT1 is everytime left from you. now you have basic overview. FT2 will every time stay at your right if you order. That means "FT1 contact Left flank in a forest"  But if somebody say "This is Elerik contact left flank" you will have to remember that this guy is there and there. And names will confuse you many times. 

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Sounds interesting. Maybe next time u do this i can join your game and be part of the experience

 

How about getting a squad together to try it this evening (9 feb), around 7PM GMT? (8PM CET)

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Same for reporting. FT 1 can report and you will immediately know that FT1 is everytime left from you. now you have basic overview. FT2 will every time stay at your right if you order. That means "FT1 contact Left flank in a forest"  But if somebody say "This is Elerik contact left flank" you will have to remember that this guy is there and there. And names will confuse you many times. 

Great suggestions for the fireteams. I did think of splitting a squad in 2, being squadleader and leader of a 5-man fireteam, and having another 4-man fireteam. For now, I don't think we'll get a full 9-man squad to start with anyways, so we'll see how it goes. ;)

 

As for the names, I wasn't intending name identification to be used before EVERY message, especially if it's enemy callouts. Just a simple callout (if squad is together) would suffice, although your suggestion of linking it to fireteams (fireteam 1 contact left front!) would be even better!

 

Thanks for thinking along. :)

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I've updated my list with some more map usage guidelines.

 

How about getting a squad together to try it this evening (9 feb), around 7PM GMT? (8PM CET)

 

I'm sorry I can't do this week, I'm gonna be tied up. I'll add you on steam and we can organise something for the weekend!

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I gave it a brief try on my own. Heres my experiences:

 

- Not very enjoyable when you're the only one doing it.

- Identifying your teammates is IMPOSSIBLE. Especially when they're standing in a whole group of friendlies, running around. Pretty annoying.

- Have to ask who's talking when you hear someone talking, until you recognise their voice.

- Compass and stamina bar remained visible for some reason. The commands don't disable them.

- Messages disabled meant that you can't see respawn timers any more, or the reason why your rally point isnt going down.

- Map use is very convenient. It will be hard to 'force' myself to use it less.

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I know soldiers aren't the brightest bunch but I'm fairly sure they can still count to single digits and can tell when they're exhausted

About smart enough to give their lives for your freedoms.

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I think the Hardcore thing is something more about the vibe or feel i played insurgency and you died from a few shots but still it felt really arcade besides the damage model it had, i don't think this is something i would like, squad already is pretty fair and tactical no need for adding some mechanic changes like that i think when vehicles are added and a few things rework this game is going to really go to another scale.

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disablewidgets

disableHUD

 

 

Two commands which make it very hardcore. They remove compass, nametags, ammo, stamina. EVERYTHING

 

I played one round, found it so intense I was crawling around fools road like a snail, not knowing WTF was going on  :lol:  :lol:

 

I loved it, but due to the obvious, that I was only restricting myself, I haven't done it since.

 

I think having server implemented restrictions would add great variety.

 

 

Honestly Karm, just throw those two commands out next time you're in mate. It's a whole new world  ;)

 

The issue with just disabling those is twofold. First off, even in RL you can usually get an idea as to which direction you're heading in (at least I almost always can). So not having access to the compass seems way too restrictive. Same goes with not having access to the map. Secondly, as you mentioned you would be the only one with those settings disabled.

 

Perhaps the solution is to change the size of the player icon by several magnitudes to only give the player an idea as to where they are (aka you're NOT in the center of it). Or perhaps the map would just outline the keypad or tile (or even a quad of tiles) that you're in. Again, give someone a vague idea as to  where they are, but do not give them an exact location. But I would think that some indication would be needed due to different map sizes and how hard it is to judge distances in a video game. I mean in RL, I usually have an idea as to how far I've gone. This would be brutal without access to some indication as to where you're at on the map and no compass. Or perhaps the solution is a gadget that is your compass/gps that only the SL can pull out. A few different ways to do it, but I think giving them some options is a necessity.

 

I like the idea of not showing friendlies on the map, but I would like some sort of indication as to where other SL's are. Again, maybe just a KP/tile indicator. I also like the idea of not showing player names unless you're very close to them. And then is so you can call out to 'Joe' instead of 'hey you'.

 

I'm alright with the HUD being there. You'd easily be able to check how many nades/mags/bandages/etc you had left in RL, just as you would know (or could check) whether you're on FA or SA, or are empty.

 

But I would absolutely love to play on a server with a few more restrictions on it.

 

Edit. But the only way to really do this would either be as a mod or as a server option that the dev's provide. We could fuck around with it ourselves, but ultimately you'd need this to be a server side setting if you actually wanted to play a round like this.

Edited by Ti0mat

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I have issue with the numbers you used. The M67 fragmentation grenade has a real life kill radius of 5 meters and casualty radius of 15 meters. In your example you used 16ft which is 4.877 meters and 49ft which is 14.935 meters. That's pretty damn close to real life capabilities. I'd even go as far as saying increasing those numbers to equal 5m and 15m exactly would not make the grenades noticeably more deadlier or "hardcore" .

How did you measure the lethality range of grenades in-game?

Edit: Words

 

Honestly I've not done any testing, I'm just going off of theory. I've had some grenades land pretty damn close to me that have done nothing to me.

 

That has always confused me a bit, though. Whenever I see combat footage, there's no way those guys aim anywhere near as accurately as any of us would in-game with "realistic recoil". In fact, half the time they aren't even looking when they're just suppressing. In-game, this suppression would miss its mark if it landed too far away from the enemy.

 

I accept that a trained person, in a controlled or calm round of shooting at a target, would probably have more shots on target at full auto than we can get in-game. But in combat situations (the various random footage that I'm looking at, anyhow...), I don't see that reflected at all.

 

I'm not necessarily saying full auto so much as just recoil in general. Recoil just isn't super high on the AR. That being said, the most recent update is much closer to realistic on semi auto and, if you pull down properly, the realistic isn't impossible either. That being said, yeah, a lot of people are just aiming to suppress rather than kill and that's what a lot of people do in game as well. 

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I also forgot to mention that the loss of HUD includes the auto/semi indicator. If you don't pay attention, you won't know whether your gun is on semi (on spawn) or auto, until you fire it.

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I feel that most proposed changes would make the game less realistic in many ways. Let's not fool ourselves into believing that a single stray bullet fragment always incapacitates a soldier without any real knowledge to back it up. When it comes to making the game more realistic we should instead be asking field surgeons and veteran soldiers with real-life combat experience to get a feel for the game (and I know that there are some players who have such experience). Maybe we are missing things that they think are way more important? Like the OP wrote, not all of the points brought up (and I suspect increased weapon damage is one of them) may lead to more realism.

Further examples:

  • Should there be bullet fragments sputtering around corners and through walls?
  • Does the body armour block lucky hits completely?
  • Is the way the average gamer plays (through mouse, keyboard and monitor) so restricted that it completely removes a lot of vital aspects?
  • Maybe the communication capabilities in field (due to training or unknown factors) are actually much better in real life, to the extent that we just removing ourselves further from realism by removing maps and compass? Removing the HUD may bring you closer to the realism of people that are lost in the woods rather than an organized combat operation.
  • Checking and selecting your equipment is done without a HUD in real life by looking at the weapons themselves (safety, fire mode, ammunition left). You would have one life and loads of time to familiarize your brain to how many items you have left. You can get a feel for the weight of your items. You can look at spent casings, empty magazines in your pockets. Maybe, by removing the HUD indicators, we are crippling ourselves to a harder level than it would be to use the equipment in real life?
  • What do the military advisors on that the developers talk to have to say about it?

Despite my criticism I do appreciate the initiative to test things out. But a few of the things that Karm mentioned I do already, and I feel that they can be done to improve your experience without turning anything off. :d

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Honestly I've not done any testing, I'm just going off of theory. I've had some grenades land pretty damn close to me that have done nothing to me.

Ah, so now you choose to be honest. Using the term, 'honestly' implies that everything you've said prior to that is bullshit, lies. I'd still like to know how you got those numbers you used.

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As soon as the mod tools come out some one could easily make a arma style compass and that would fix the hud compass or hc lack of compass.

I'm all for this idea with hardcore.

Call signs would solve the radio identifications.

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