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Deadduck

Locked squads Good Idea or bad idea?

Squad locking   

400 members have voted

  1. 1. Locked squads will be good for the game

    • Yes
      278
    • No
      118
    • I am going to comment anyway!
      11


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10 hours ago, Krypton56 said:

Just like to add once the locked squads has been added I think the admins will need some more clearly defined tool's so we can see every player who is in a vehicle and what seat there in?

They are working on a whole new UI which will have this exact feature. (They are reworking the whole UI though, so it could take some time)

 

EDT: Sorry I over read the admin part, next time Ill drink my coffee first and then start reading the forums... I don´t know if admins will have that option.

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The only reason anyone ever feels they "need" to lock a squad is down to a incompetence as a Squad Leader along with a failing of communication and teamwork resulting in the players feeling the "need" to isolate themselves in order to play the game. This is completely counter intuitive to the design of squad, end of.

I'm not saying that there's no use for squads with less than 9 players, there certainly is, it's how you achieve that that matters. (hint, it's part of the ethos of the entire game)

Enabling locked squads will only encourage elitists with poor teamwork & social skills to stick together and never expand their playstyle to incorporate the team.
Assets will be dominated by the same group of people map after map with the claim that because they created the locked 3 man squad first, every tank & apc now belongs to them.
More importantly the gold dust that is new players will be shutdown and turned away.

We never allowed locked squads in our server and dare I say we were one of the very very best. That was down to the fact we encouraged communication rather than isolation and if limited soldiers were needed for a squad people weren't afraid to explain this to each other; with a dialogue open it's much more likely the "un-needed" squadmember actually presents a use or goes off to create their own squad to work in tandem with yours following a positive interaction.

Of course it's easier for some SLs to just click lock and ignore the responsibility towards new players whilst staying in their own little bubble but it is never needed for any reason and doesn't make for better gameplay as some might try to convince you, it's just an easy out for those that might not be very good at wearing the big backpack.


Add locked squads by all means but for the love of all that is holy give admins the ability to disable them on what will end up being the better servers ;)
 

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I think part of the intention behind having unlockable 9-man squads as the only option, was to promote teamplay and community, especially while the community is still developing. In my experience, 9-man squads rarely promote good teamwork, because usually it is too chaotic to work well. Its usually too many for it to be manageable, effective or any fun (especially for the SL, who has to manage too much). Of course this is made worse with so many unexperienced casuals flooding the servers these days, people who arent able to contribute to the squad for whatever reason (no mic, inexperience, stupidness, etc). I hope they will soon enable the ability to make smaller squads, like 6-man squad, which is the magic number for me. When Im SL for 5 other guys, Im able to get to know them, to explain stuff to the new guys, and the squad is small enough for it to make sense to move together in proximity. The maps aren't really big or open enough for 9-man squads, this isnt like PR yet.

When we play competitive matches against other clans, 18v18 for example, we almost exclusively use 6-man squads. If we had fireteams, we would maybe change that up, because it would become more practical to split up the squad into 2 smaller units. But when I play in public, I think I would still prefer to SL a 6-man squad over a 9-man squad with two fireteams, simply because the latter might take so much effort from me for it to be any enjoyable. Especially now that the game is in a phase where a lot of unexperienced players are populating the servers.

Im not necessarily asking for lockable squads at this point, but for squads with less than 9 members (which are almost impossible to have in the current state of the game, without kicking people from the squad every 2 minutes).

Edited by plissken

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59 minutes ago, Sadist_Cain said:

The only reason anyone ever feels they "need" to lock a squad is down to a incompetence as a Squad Leader along with a failing of communication and teamwork

You don't need a full squad to perform certain tasks, but why should squad leader have to deal with the other random people who just join his squad to snatch a kit? Getting kicked from a squad just feels bad, that leads to frustrated people and unnecessary drama. I'm not saying there won't be any drama with locked squads, but you'd definitely be more pissed if you got kicked (and get stuck with the 'trainee' kit or whatever it's called) in the middle of nowhere. Also, if people can't join your squad and immediately spawn on your own rally point it limits the griefer's options as well. Win-win for me.

 

59 minutes ago, Sadist_Cain said:

Enabling locked squads will only encourage elitists with poor teamwork & social skills to stick together and never expand their playstyle to incorporate the team.

It will also enable people to have fun with their mates who share the same playstyle and generally want to play in a bit more serious and organized fashion without having to repeatedly kick people who don't share their playstyle and deal with the resulting teamkilling and flaming. Players who play for the win and not for their kill count will always cooperate with their team, and those who don't won't be stopped by not being able to lock their squads. You may call people elitist all you want, but you just can't have the same level of coordination with guys you just met and clanmates whom you've been playing with for months and years.

 

59 minutes ago, Sadist_Cain said:

More importantly the gold dust that is new players will be shutdown and turned away.

The new players aren't probibited from creating their own squads and figuring stuff out on their own, it's not like everybody here needed a vet from day one to hold his hand. The new players are also free (once they recognize that they'd like to play more tactically) to join one of the many clans, each probably offering a slightly different experience. I know the game's supposed to be user friendly, but let's just let people figure something out on their own, mature players will find their way in Squad.

 

59 minutes ago, Sadist_Cain said:

We never allowed locked squads in our server and dare I say we were one of the very very best. That was down to the fact we encouraged communication rather than isolation and if limited soldiers were needed for a squad people weren't afraid to explain this to each other; with a dialogue open it's much more likely the "un-needed" squadmember actually presents a use or goes off to create their own squad to work in tandem with yours following a positive interaction.

While that's all nice and dandy, have you ever been a squad leader and had to repeat the same thing over 10 times to different or even the same players who just kept joining your squad? It gets old quick, and you wanna keep the squad leaders happy, they are what drives the entire game after all.

 

59 minutes ago, Sadist_Cain said:

Add locked squads by all means but for the love of all that is holy give admins the ability to disable them on what will end up being the better servers ;)

Probably the only thing I can agree with here. I don't see why the servers wouldn't be able to disable this function and have their own hippie version of Squad, we'll see which one the players like more.

Edited by MultiSquid

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I do like the style In pr over squad concerning squads and vehicles especially. Don't need 9 pl to transpo and logical Round, or run a btr or mbt, etc... I like that style over the one we have now where they drive a vehicle and ditch it, or rush it and it goes boomb. Be nice to get on the horn and call.in some support backup 

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5 hours ago, Sadist_Cain said:

The only reason anyone ever feels they "need" to lock a squad is down to a incompetence as a Squad Leader along with a failing of communication and teamwork resulting in the players feeling the "need" to isolate themselves in order to play the game. This is completely counter intuitive to the design of squad, end of.

 

No, not end of.

If a group of friends wants (5+ is fine in my book) to play "isolated" and undisturbed by outsiders, you have to deal with that and join another squad, or create one.

The whole "incompetence" BS talk is just that, BS. You sound salty and pissed, as if someone locked you out and now you need to whine about it.

 

I have seen clan-only squads who lead the board and wrecked havoc.

How well does that go along with your claims of incompetence?

 

If you don't like it, it's fine.

But don't make up some BS strawman and accuse a largely anonymous group without any evidence of being incompetent.

All you did is discredit yourself and showed everyone how "valuable" your opinion is...

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7 hours ago, Sadist_Cain said:

The only reason anyone ever feels they "need" to lock a squad is down to a incompetence as a Squad Leader along with a failing of communication and teamwork resulting in the players feeling the "need" to isolate themselves in order to play the game. This is completely counter intuitive to the design of squad, end of.

I'm not saying that there's no use for squads with less than 9 players, there certainly is, it's how you achieve that that matters. (hint, it's part of the ethos of the entire game)

Enabling locked squads will only encourage elitists with poor teamwork & social skills to stick together and never expand their playstyle to incorporate the team.
Assets will be dominated by the same group of people map after map with the claim that because they created the locked 3 man squad first, every tank & apc now belongs to them.
More importantly the gold dust that is new players will be shutdown and turned away.

We never allowed locked squads in our server and dare I say we were one of the very very best. That was down to the fact we encouraged communication rather than isolation and if limited soldiers were needed for a squad people weren't afraid to explain this to each other; with a dialogue open it's much more likely the "un-needed" squadmember actually presents a use or goes off to create their own squad to work in tandem with yours following a positive interaction.

Of course it's easier for some SLs to just click lock and ignore the responsibility towards new players whilst staying in their own little bubble but it is never needed for any reason and doesn't make for better gameplay as some might try to convince you, it's just an easy out for those that might not be very good at wearing the big backpack.


Add locked squads by all means but for the love of all that is holy give admins the ability to disable them on what will end up being the better servers ;)
 

 

As much as id like to agree with everything in your post I don't.

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10 hours ago, Tartantyco said:

What are you even talking about, @Sadist_Cain? Absolutely everything you said is disproved by PR and Squad.


This PR?
 

Quote

 

First off, this is a personal post, not one as a tech support volunteer.

Project Reality is going to have a well needed influx of new players in the next two weeks.  One of the selling points for PR is the teamwork based nature of gameplay.  It is now up to the veteran community to actually extend their hand out and welcome the new playerbase into their squads, on a daily basis, and show them around our little corner of the gaming internet.  

That means:

  • 1.  Not locking asset squads to non-Clan members.
  • 2.  Not kicking new players from squads if they are floundering.
  • 3.  Taking the extra step to help total strangers get acclimated to PR's game mechanics and gameplay style on a regular basis for the coming weeks, during each and every gaming session.
  • 4.  Generally providing "teachable moments" admonishments instead of defaulting to the "kick that noob" mentality when dealing with seemingly clueless new players.
  • 5.  Be a good human being to those who might not have a strong grasp of the native language on the servers.  In many ways, the future of PR is going to be in the developing nations where moderate performance, moderately priced hardware, and fast and reliable enough internet connections are just now becoming widely available.
  • 6.  Run some training squads, name them training squads, and take on the task of getting new players up to speed in PR.
  • 7.  Be nice enough to point people towards the online manual, which is being updated and will be available hopefully on release day. EDIT:  manual can be downloaded here: http://www.realitymod.com/downloads
  • 8.  Invite new players into your gaming clans/groups, let them see and participate in the larger community that has developed around the PR game,
  • 9. The larger clans should break out and run 2 or 3 separate squads, filling the squads out with new players, and working in a mindset of multiple squads working together. Bring in a few clanmates in each squad, use the buddy system with new players, anything you can think of to get new players a good experience during their first impression of Project Reality.
  • 10. No racism or prejudice.

I'm sure there are more things to be said on the matter, but I hope I get the point across with the list above.

The trailer has had over 42,606 views as when I'm posting this thread.  With all of us putting our good foot forward to invite new players into the fold, we could see a much higher conversion rate of new players into long term members of the game community.

Don't disrespect the PR Devs and the tens of thousands of man hours volunteered in the last years by acting like a jag-off during the 1.0 release week.

 


T&T, OD-S, iGi, NwA and more all operated their own variation of the no locked squads rule at some point or another, be it with a player count, assets only or whatever reason locking a squad was always seen as an evil to the overall gameplay but at times a necessary one.

 

10 hours ago, MultiSquid said:

While that's all nice and dandy, have you ever been a squad leader and had to repeat the same thing over 10 times to different or even the same players who just kept joining your squad? It gets old quick, and you wanna keep the squad leaders happy, they are what drives the entire game after all.

 

I did years of playing nothing but Squad lead whilst Adminning at the same time, no worries whatsoever.

 

10 hours ago, MultiSquid said:

Probably the only thing I can agree with here. I don't see why the servers wouldn't be able to disable this function and have their own hippie version of Squad, we'll see which one the players like more.


FTFY. We need "Safe Spaces" for all these hippy softies who get easily offended and can't handle leadership without holding their veteran friend's hand ;)

 

6 hours ago, Lethargo said:

 

No, not end of.

If a group of friends wants (5+ is fine in my book) to play "isolated" and undisturbed by outsiders, you have to deal with that and join another squad, or create one.

The whole "incompetence" BS talk is just that, BS. You sound salty and pissed, as if someone locked you out and now you need to whine about it.

 

I have seen clan-only squads who lead the board and wrecked havoc.

How well does that go along with your claims of incompetence?

 

If you don't like it, it's fine.

But don't make up some BS strawman and accuse a largely anonymous group without any evidence of being incompetent.

All you did is discredit yourself and showed everyone how "valuable" your opinion is...


Firstly get your logical fallacy right.

    "A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent."


Secondly you seem to be the one getting all offended at this moment, why? Because I said that those who lock themselves in friends only squads because they can't handle leading people are incompetent at leading people?


Diddums?
A trained chimp can manage a premade group of friends who are used to playing with each other all the time.
 

I never said the squad itself is incompetent. Nay I'd expect them to be high up on the board if they all know what they're doing, so the whole idea of trying to one up by saying clan squads can *wreak havoc is moot and besides the point (a.k.a strawman BS).
Of course they should perform well, they're in a clan that should understand the majority of the ins and outs of the game, in that situation the Squad lead doesn't really need to "Lead" that much, they're just there to place the spawns and markers.
Though being useful in a match they're not helping the health or longevity of the game at all by being in a bubble all the time by themselves.
The majority of the time they only shine through because they are the most concentrated group of experienced players in a sea of mostly ignorant nubbys due to all the clans routinely locking themselves off thus keeping any knowledge & experience in their own little bubble.
 

A good squad lead will take whatever is available to them at the time and will make it into a very capable fighting force, thats where the real leadership skills come into play. They have no need to cherry pick the people they want for the jobs at hand because they're competent enough at leading people to achieve the task at hand, whatever that task may be.

Some of the very best players who understand everything about the game are the most incapable squad leads because they're unable to relate that knowledge and function with someone they haven't known for years or one who doesn't have clan tags on.
 

Apologies if that harshness ruffles some feathers but that's plain fact. Someone who is willing and able to lead any group of people effectively is far better for the health of the game, playerbase and match quality than one who can only lead locked squads of their friends.

I for one don't think locked squads are a good idea because of this. They encourage elitism, are a poor and ineffective way at managing assets & specialised squads, put invaluable knowledge behind a wall and segregate the players.

Like I said before you don't need 9 man squads for everything but there are better ways to manage the use of assets and specialised squad roles than just slapping a padlock on it.

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18 minutes ago, Sadist_Cain said:

Firstly get your logical fallacy right.

 

I did.

" By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable, but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine honest rational debate. "

 

You claiming "incompetence" of people you don't know is nothing but a straw man, a distraction, but whatever, it is besides the point.

 

Your whole argument is based on nothing but a hollow claim.

That's all there is to say about it - and you.

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It seems the best idea is to allow SLs to lock squad sizes only. If you want to run logi you can lock the squad size to 3 max, but anybody can take those 2 remaining spots. You shouldn't be able to lock a squad so only certain people can join - save that for comps and events.

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Sadist_Cain i agree 100%!!! Locked inf squads will ruin game for new guys.

 

I got into PR very late. As i started to play my experience was that over half of my rounds i didn't enjoy at all. Way to often in game I ended up running around alone, because all squads were locked. I left the game again after a few weeks. Had some great experiences, but mostly i remember PR for being very hard to get into for a new player. Guess i could have made my own squad. But i didn't understand the gameplay at all.

 

You say that you want to allow clan mates to play together and let new players learn the game on their own. But why not let people join your squad and play with you and learn from you? If you just leave new players the will keep playing like it is BF. Perhaps you could even increase your group of 6 guys by getting to know more people? Perhaps you could train a new SL by example?

 

I play SL all the time i Squad. I agree that there are lots of people who doesn't follow you orders. Yesterday i almost exploded from rage when my guys didn't follow me in flanking or didn't move to the cap zone. But locked squads will do more harm than good!

 

Yes i understand the need for smaller squads for Logistics, Tank, APCs or Helis. But this is another problem.

Edited by Romby

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Hmmm... I don't like the idea of a locked squad but if a person gets kicked from said Squad, there should be some sort of way of him not being able to rejoin. Maybe by invite only, or something, there's too many people who don't contribute to the overall teamplay the game is supposed to be about. WAY too many people at this current stage, those of us who value the weight of good team players and teamwork are quite the minority. 

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I think most guys here agree that there is a necessity for being able to make smaller squads than 9 people, but not necessarily to be able to actually lock squads (at least not yet, because its good for the community that people make connections and learn from each other).

The only problem I see with allowing small sizes like for example 3-man squads, is that it will in practice be the same as locking a squad. Three friends will just join that squad, and no one else will be able to play with them (they can kick randoms until all the friends are inside). Now, I dont mind friends and clans playing just together if thats all they want, but if we want the community to grow we need to think long-term about these things. So perhaps dont allow for squads as small as just 3 or 4 guys (at least not yet), but give the option for making squad sizes of 6, 7, 8 or 9-man. That way, friends and clans can play together without getting "flooded" by randoms, but there would still be room in the squad for a couple of random guys to hop in. Having two or three randoms in your squad is a lot more managable and even pleasant, than having 5-6...

Edited by plissken

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The game allows for a max of 9 squads on each team. So allowing people to limiting squads to 6 people could work (9x6=54). But if samller squads for vehicles are added later this needs to change.

 

I have a fix that is a bit different but would achieve the same. Most people want to lock squad because they only want to play with serious people. Right now if a player joins a squad and dont follow orders, he can just rejoin squad. This is a problem right now. Dont allow kicked players  rejoin squad for the remainder of round and Clan people dont have to play with people just stealing kits and not working together. Of cause this would allow SLs just to kick everyone except their friends and have a locked squad this way. But just people wouldn't do this.

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@Romby I havent had much problem with people rejoining my squad after I kick them (I think there is a cooldown timer that doesnt allow them to rejoin), my problem is that new people just keep joining the squad, often without saying a word, or saying too much... And I cant be bothered to keep kicking people all the time, its time-consuming and creates ill-feelings. Its especially impractical when you are trying to make a 6-man squad, and have to kick people who didnt "do anything wrong" (except failing to understand what "6-MAN SQUAD" means in the squad title). Some of them even join the squad just to tell me how wrong I am to even try to make a 6-man squad, or a 4-man squad, as I sometimes do...

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 I'm all for teaching the community and what not but we have the right to choose who is in our squads. some days I don't wanna teach noobs or have random in my squad. I'm not one who likes to kick people as I agree it has a bad effect on the community but if that what I have to do at some point if this isn't implemented I will, an so will others.

 

You cannot change the fact that this will happen and I think that having the locked squads feature in place is better than not having it as the effects will be worse with a more salty community.

 

I have genuinely had more TK's from kicking noobs from my squad then any other reason.

 

 

The way to get a better community is to reduce kicking and to do that you put locked squads in place.

 

Edited by Krypton56

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Yup, I have had this happen before and it's usually mother****ing retard squeakers, that do the TKing. 

Oh god I said, a curse word. alert the church elders. 

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On 2/8/2016 at 11:48 PM, Deadduck said:

Thoughts Please

 

No need to comment Just a straw Poll.

 

Great idea and should happen in more shooters on PC

 

One of the reasons I can see is when you are playing with clan mates

and you want to save a few spots for your friends that will be coming online

in 5-15 minutes time or don't have the time/patience to deal with IDI0TS spawning

on you and opening up like a t0sser to give away your groups position

 

or maybe you have a jerk that has his mic on voice activate and always transmit

with his tv in the background , house noise , dog barking or him breathing or sounding

like a squeaky chewtoy annoying voice

Edited by charliebrownau

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Can I just say usual server rules are infantry squads cannot be locked under certain amount of players??? everyone forget this ?

 

 also with vehicle squads I'm fine with them locking a set player numbers 1 tank why do we need 9 guys

Edited by Krypton56

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15 hours ago, plissken said:

@Romby I havent had much problem with people rejoining my squad after I kick them (I think there is a cooldown timer that doesnt allow them to rejoin), my problem is that new people just keep joining the squad, often without saying a word, or saying too much... And I cant be bothered to keep kicking people all the time, its time-consuming and creates ill-feelings. Its especially impractical when you are trying to make a 6-man squad, and have to kick people who didnt "do anything wrong" (except failing to understand what "6-MAN SQUAD" means in the squad title). Some of them even join the squad just to tell me how wrong I am to even try to make a 6-man squad, or a 4-man squad, as I sometimes do...

 

Strange. I kicked a guy and he was back in my squad right away.

 

And the double digit squad numbers was mentioned in a interview i watched a long time ago. Guess it changed since then.

 

7 hours ago, Krypton56 said:

Can I just say usual server rules are infantry squads cannot be locked under certain amount of players??? everyone forget this ?

 

 also with vehicle squads I'm fine with them locking a set player numbers 1 tank why do we need 9 guys

 

I agree with locked squads for vehicles and guess i can see why you want to limit inf squad to 6 players. But that should be the limit and 7 players would better.

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