nastydisease

Bleed is too harsh?

153 posts in this topic

Plenty of games offer TDM, Squad strives to achieve something more than your typical shooter. Growing pains will be something this community will have to deal with, some will get upset at the changes but I believe the majority of Squad players will grow to see the merit of the developer choices. FOBs are by no means irrelevant because flags have ticket bleed, in fact I think having a network of spawn points is even more vital to success, you not only have to support an defense(as is the case with the vast majority of FOBs I've seen since I started playing over a year ago) but you now must consider which resources to apply to your offensive capabilities. The FOB meta-game is at an all time high, and anyone who doesn't see that is blinded by comfort. This is a huge step in the right direction, and many PR players can now start to "feel" the impact of lessons from said game by bringing strategies that are applicable to AAS in PR to Squad.

 

The vast majority of posters here seem upset at having to learn how to play AAS properly, but keep in mind there will likely be many balancing patches in the future (not sure how long but patient bear will be ready).

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No.

 

There were too many people running round not playing the objectives. Now? You don't play the objectives you get beat.

 

Sounds like you and the players you play with need more practice.

 

A lot of people worked to get this in place, rather than winning through 'inflicting casualties' which lead to TDM rounds. 

 

 

 

It's called AAS for a reason, if you Advance And Secure (mode name) then yes, you should win through that method.

 

i dont wanna play the arcade game card, but... maybe, it wouldn't be bad when the game is finsihed that the implement some kind of TDM too. Not even to attract more players maybe, just also for fun - maybe on smaller map scale or something - has no priority but it wouldnt be a bad move either

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It may be a 50 slot server, but theres still only 40 players on it. Quite alot less than 72 that many servers have.

And here is my fact: 30 mins is not at all enough for a full round. The average needs to be 1hr-1hr 30 mins to allow for team wide tactics, basebuilding and comebacks. Right now the round is almost over after the first engagement between the 2 teams.

 

 

OK try this one then: 

qNLwNeB.jpg

 

 

72 Man all clans some very talented players and it took over an Hour. Want the Twitch or need more proof?

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I had a lot of fun today - and was filled with hatred and rage during the first play through... went 4/10 got shit on so hard.... Who ever was attacking Riverside... You destroyed my butthole multiple times. Well played to all the clans involved. iB - HSG - REDCOATS (thanks for the MASSIVE fucking save at river...) FUBAR - CML - GHOST - 303RD - RIP - great game - had great fun. Well played to all - good line up. Cheers.

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Replies to your points are in bold.

 

If you want to talk about team skill and balance then we can but it is not directly related to the issue at hand. Sure it's important but this game has made it extremely easy for players to work together even if they are total strangers, all they have to do is try. If they don't want to try then they will have a very bad time in SQUAD until they learn to communicate or they stop playing. Both outcomes are acceptable.

 

I are most certainly NOT advocating for camping on superFOBS. I am talking about adding urgency to the game for no thematic reason. It undoubtedly speeds up play and skews the battle more heavily towards the side with the initiative. It cheapens the tactics and makes them less varied.

 

 

Plenty of games offer TDM, Squad strives to achieve something more than your typical shooter. Growing pains will be something this community will have to deal with, some will get upset at the changes but I believe the majority of Squad players will grow to see the merit of the developer choices. FOBs are by no means irrelevant because flags have ticket bleed, in fact I think having a network of spawn points is even more vital to success, you not only have to support an defense(as is the case with the vast majority of FOBs I've seen since I started playing over a year ago) but you now must consider which resources to apply to your offensive capabilities. The FOB meta-game is at an all time high, and anyone who doesn't see that is blinded by comfort. This is a huge step in the right direction, and many PR players can now start to "feel" the impact of lessons from said game by bringing strategies that are applicable to AAS in PR to Squad.

 

The vast majority of posters here seem upset at having to learn how to play AAS properly, but keep in mind there will likely be many balancing patches in the future (not sure how long but patient bear will be ready).

 

Once again, the OP says nothing about the validity of FOB's. I use assets sparingly and rarely, if at all on AAS. I am simply advocating for more considered maneuvers.

 

Furthermore there is no ticket bleed in PR's AAS barring the last cap (or two in rare cases) on some (not all) maps. This is a new addition to the system.

 

Real combat is not a continuous unit by unit pell mell assault because the objective must be taken or the world will end. Its not exactly a hostage situation where the enemy is executing your troops either. At least not western armies and not for a long time. Officers dont throw away lives without an extreme analysis of the risks and justifications.

 

Yes people do give up a lot more now. If you are losing the equivalent of a soldier every ten seconds for free, that is a significant disadvantage for a team for making a mistake. I think there are other methods for punishing said team without producing an ongoing time based disadvantage.

 

It limits the risks that a squad is able to make when defending. They cannot aggressively patrol its surroundings or counter attack a fob (possibly built by no more than three men who have snuck past) because if the point is taken behind you and you will continuously hemorrhage tickets, even if the point is well behind friendly lines. The game already far more skewed towards offensive action than PR, lacking its deviation system that caused people to slow down if they wanted to be able to shoot accurately, and with the smaller caps and the higher sprint speed. This only skews the game towards players who have higher fps skill (not necessarily tactics) and already doing well and it will damage the games accessibility.

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It limits the risks that a squad is able to make when defending.They cannot aggressively patrol its surroundings...

 

We just did that im the match I linked - One of our patrolmen went 27-4 doing just that.  So I'll respectfully disagree. Here is the twitch:

 

http://www.twitch.tv/squadleague/v/41408329

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OK try this one then

 

72 Man all clans some very talented players and it took over an Hour. Want the Twitch or need more proof?

Im glad you had a good round, but the argument youre using here is like saying global warming dosent exist because it snows in YOUR backyard.

We're talking about the effect of the change on an average round, and one of them is that its undoubtedly shortening them. The average PR round was 1,5-2 hours, right now in Squad its probably 0,5-1 hour, and im sure there are alot of us that find that too short.

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Im glad you had a good round, but the argument youre using here is like saying global warming dosent exist because it snows in YOUR backyard.

We're talking about the effect of the change on an average round, and one of them is that its undoubtedly shortening them. The average PR round was 1,5-2 hours, right now in Squad its probably 0,5-1 hour, and im sure there are alot of us that find that too short.

Then go play PR bud. I'm not sure if you've noticed or not but this aint that.

 

Not saying Bunions' posts prove everything but plenty of you here are complaining against the ticket bleed while comparing SQUAD to PR which is frankly idiotic. Do we need to list the differences currently between the two so you guys can understand why the shorter rounds are happening?

 

I'm not saying I like shorter rounds but I do like that they can exist. If my team is crushing the opposition so solidly why should we have to wait an extra 30 minutes before the round ends just so you can farm your k/d more?

 

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it until you guys understand. This is a new mechanic designed to influence player behavior to focus on the objectives. Many others have said this as well. There will be a period of adjustment while players, namely those that never played PR, figure this out and adapt.

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Disagree, I just provided two games as evidence, so I dunno what to tell you I can keep supplying evidence to support the argument I suppose. At a certain point however, I guess its time to just shrug and realize factual evidence means nothing to some people. 

 

I at least am trying to provide evidence to support my side of the argument, so far no one else saying bleed is too fast has.

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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it CAN be too fast if you get a bad team... but that's the point of the game - to struggle.

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Real combat is not a continuous unit by unit pell mell assault because the objective must be taken or the world will end. Its not exactly a hostage situation where the enemy is executing your troops either. At least not western armies and not for a long time. Officers dont throw away lives without an extreme analysis of the risks and justifications.

 

 

A lot of combat situations in the past decade have been unit by unit pell mell assaults, meat grinds, cluster fucks. A lot of strongholds and strategic points have been lost and retaken in short amounts of time at the high cost of life involving friendly,enemy and civilian. One day enemy an stronghold or strategic location in a town has been secured, next day the insurgents have it back. Afghanistan and Iraq are the primary examples of this.

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Ticket bleed definitely needs some tuning. Very glad to see objective capture reward / penalize. This is great (tho also subject to some tuning).

 

However the bleed mechanic is currently not achieving the desired effect imo. The bleed mechanic can make a match that could otherwise be interesting into a foregone conclusion. It is also rewarding very gamey tactics.

 

Right now between the map designs not optimized for ticket bleed considerations and the choice to invoke bleed when the majority of flags are captured, rounds are frequently lost by wide margins.

 

I believe it can be good to have bleed when all but the last base is captured. It forces a round to come to an end, rather than dragging it out. However, the bleed is too often the cause of victory.

 

I think a better mechanic would be to either remove the bleed (but keep the reward / punish) OR to only invoke the bleed after a (configurable) amount of time. Say 10 (or 0) minutes after the last base changed hands to the attacker, the bleed would initiate. Ideally a timer in the UI would indicate how long before bleed kicks in. Making that base neutral would reset the timer.

 

I also believe the ticket counter should indicate bleed status. Something like changing to ticket counter to red when your team is bleeding.

 

We spent a lot of time tweaking PR to get these kind of things right, so I am sure the team will tweak and tune it with time, but I would love to see some adjustments made fairly soon.

 

Cheers,

egg

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The issue is that youre more likely to end up in a bad (short) game.

Enemy team is good, your team is bad = short game
Your team is good, the enemy team is bad = short game
Both teams are bad = short game
Both teams are good = long enjoyable game

Youre 3 times as likely to end up in a short game.

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And have you thought of "more carrot less stick"?

Instead of punishing the enemy team for losing an objective, why not reward the team that captures it.

If the object is to make the objectives matter, but you dont want short dull one sided games that end quickly, abandon the ticket bleed concept, and instead add "bonuses" to holding the objective. More ammo capacity, another kit unlock, resupply point, auto building FOB defenses, radar, active protection like a spawn, free artillery strike.

Reward the team with a "buff" that captures the objective. Unless you lose all your objectives, youll still hold a few buffs of your own, if you lose everything, the other team is rewarded for playing so well with all the buffs.

Battlefield plays with this idea with the objectives that let you get the vehicles, or spawn a bomber or whatever, but it never really explores the entirety of that concept. 

Capture the ammo depot? Everyone gets an extra grenade.

That way the games are typically all the same length (based on tickets for deaths), the objectives still matter, and the better team who PTFO's will still always win, BUT, it never makes the game arbitrarily shorter, which leads to rage apparently for some people.

Problem solved.

You also now can sit back on your laurels for advancing a new game device that is creative and very few developers take advantage of.

Always more carrot.

Never more stick.

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And have you thought of "more carrot less stick"?

Instead of punishing the enemy team for losing an objective, why not reward the team that captures it.

If the object is to make the objectives matter, but you dont want short dull one sided games that end quickly, abandon the ticket bleed concept, and instead add "bonuses" to holding the objective. More ammo capacity, another kit unlock, resupply point, auto building FOB defenses, radar, active protection like a spawn, free artillery strike.

Reward the team with a "buff" that captures the objective. Unless you lose all your objectives, youll still hold a few buffs of your own, if you lose everything, the other team is rewarded for playing so well with all the buffs.

Battlefield plays with this idea with the objectives that let you get the vehicles, or spawn a bomber or whatever, but it never really explores the entirety of that concept. 

Capture the ammo depot? Everyone gets an extra grenade.

That way the games are typically all the same length (based on tickets for deaths), the objectives still matter, and the better team who PTFO's will still always win, BUT, it never makes the game arbitrarily shorter, which leads to rage apparently for some people.

Problem solved.

You also now can sit back on your laurels for advancing a new game device that is creative and very few developers take advantage of.

Always more carrot.

Never more stick.

 

 

I am not a very educated man but if i am correct you contradict the post before this one by implying that squad is going to be bad because of short matches...

 

That being said the way it is, is perfect if a team was bad in the past it was (back before Early access) the round ended quickly as i did before this last update

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The bleed is perfect IMO

 

Before this new bleed was added I would get my FUBAR guys all in a squad and smash the enemy and the round would still last forever. The old fools road is the perfect example. No bleed and are team would end up base raping the enemy to death and make the team quit. Another example would be Logar valley since the last flag is so close to the deployment it is hard to take so what ends up happening is you rape the enemy and the match last forever.

 

Now with this update if you stomp all over the enemy the match ends soon and gives chance to restart and make new strategy or have new Squad leaders. Also if you watched the recent squad league match you could see that matches last just as long when the teams are balanced. 

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I really like the bleed, I think the concept is fantastic. I do also agree that the bleed rate could be lowered slightly to flesh out the games a little, or leave it at the current rate but give no immediate benefits for capping the flags (-20 to enemy, +5 to attackers) as I feel both at once is a little too harsh

 

The thing I notice here is that it feels like many of the complaints are ignoring the situation that most people never bother to defend, which loses the team flags and thus starts the bleed. I played with some guys yesterday on three different servers over the course of about 6-7 hours, played 6 matches and won every one of them. On the BigD server after winning three times in a row my squad swapped teams and just through defense and maybe kicking up the communication level on the losing team, we won the next round too. 

 

Defend. Communicate. Win :)

 

-----------

 

Edit: Just as a totally unrelated side point, I play on Japanese, *some* Euro, American and Australian servers and I have not experienced such accurate shooting from any of the servers as I did on the Australian ones yesterday.  :o It was a very different game (and I sucked at the killing component)

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I think we haven't lived quite long enough with the new bleed + other 4.0 changes to really know if the *rate* of bleed is spot on or not for 300 ticket games and the current gain/loss amounts for objectives.

The real issue imho is that with the change to rally points it can be *much* harder to get back to a cap zone after losing/being pushed back. Fob placement trends will obviously have to change, but for right now on some of the bigger maps the bleed penalty's rate *could* exceed a teams ability to cross the map in time without vehicle support. These are maps intended for not yet implemented vehicles and the changes to the rally points especially are causing failed attacks/defends to be especially devastating.

The question about such failures is whether it should lead rather directly to a round reset or whether the rate of the bleed should allow for a counter attack that may have to cross significant amounts of the map by foot.

Better fob and rally placement along the way are key but the meta hasn't quite changed to embrace that yet. (And the risk of a flanking fob hunting squad remains high especially when a single player is enough to cap a flag.)

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And be advised everyone the game is still in Alpha... Everything is subject to change

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Then go play PR bud. I'm not sure if you've noticed or not but this aint that.

 

Not saying Bunions' posts prove everything but plenty of you here are complaining against the ticket bleed while comparing SQUAD to PR which is frankly idiotic. Do we need to list the differences currently between the two so you guys can understand why the shorter rounds are happening?

 

I'm not saying I like shorter rounds but I do like that they can exist. If my team is crushing the opposition so solidly why should we have to wait an extra 30 minutes before the round ends just so you can farm your k/d more?

 

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it until you guys understand. This is a new mechanic designed to influence player behavior to focus on the objectives. Many others have said this as well. There will be a period of adjustment while players, namely those that never played PR, figure this out and adapt.

 

From the original kickstarter pledge. This has been pointed out many times before:

 

 

Our goal for Squad is to take 10 years worth of experience, testing and research with the original Project Reality formula and apply it to a modern stand-alone engine. We want nothing less than to reclaim the genre of tactical shooters for the creators, modders and players who have waited a generation to get back to intelligent, satisfying gameplay.

 

This is not the original PR formula, this is a distortion.

 

 

The bleed is perfect IMO

 

Before this new bleed was added I would get my FUBAR guys all in a squad and smash the enemy and the round would still last forever. The old fools road is the perfect example. No bleed and are team would end up base raping the enemy to death and make the team quit. Another example would be Logar valley since the last flag is so close to the deployment it is hard to take so what ends up happening is you rape the enemy and the match last forever.

 

Now with this update if you stomp all over the enemy the match ends soon and gives chance to restart and make new strategy or have new Squad leaders. Also if you watched the recent squad league match you could see that matches last just as long when the teams are balanced. 

 

Yes the ticket bleed once the last flag was capped was definitely not implemented before. If that is capped the enemy has been pushed from the map and should be losing 1 ticket per second at least.

 

There should be no ongoing penalty beyond the large hit that already exists for losing the other flags however.

 

 

Hence the importance of creating fobs and treating them like they matter.

 

True, but FOB's require manpower to defend, else be extremely well hidden. Otherwise you run the risk of losing another 10 tickets.

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Expect the ticket bleed rate and total number of tickets to change guys. Lots of development time left to tweak it so it's just right.

Remain respectful for the remainder of the discussion please.

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