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00chapmano

Performance issues - Important info for you all!

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I'd like to start a discussion about performance problems with the game. Problems that I feel are very important to be highlighted at this stage. Issues that I don't believe most Squad players are aware of. Please bear with me here. Or skip to short summary at bottom if you can't be bothered to read it all.

 

We have been told that the main reason for poor performance in Squad is the animation system. I'm sure this is true and I'm very much looking forward to seeing the results of the new system the DEVS are working on. However, there are actually bigger performance issues at hand that I don't believe any one seems to be aware of.

 

 

After spending the last month or so experimenting to ludicrous lengths, I've finally found a way to consistently reproduce the problem that I want to bring to everyone's attention...

 

It seems that when viewing the map/level from a distance, the Frames Per Second can drop considerably. I first noticed this when I would jump onto a wall or high building, allowing me to see further into the distance on some maps, to find the FPS drop by a considerable chunk. I initially assumed it was all the other players and their animations being sent through the server and back yada yada yada, just as we've been told by the DEVS, but after playing around with the 'free-look camera', I realised this has nothing to do with the animation system, and the issue is far, far worse when elevating to a much higher altitude and looking down on the map. I found a drop in FPS by over half!!!!

 

If I may, I'd like to share with you a video I made, demonstrating the problem. -  

 

What I did was start a single player game, or 'training mode', and manually change the map to Chora (which is by far the worst for this issue). This eliminated any possible animation-based performance drop as no one else was present on the map with me. FPS was super high as I have a  very powerful machine. Then I elevated the camera up high and looked down to view the whole map below to find the the FPS come tumbling down to way below 30fps. The bigger concern was that despite lowering the graphics settings to the absolute bare minimum, the FPS hardly increased at all.

 

The real problem with this is the idea of using airborne vehicles like helicopters - it's going to hinder the pilot with very low FPS. I can only imagine how bad it would be for someone who doesn't have a super-fast Intel CPU with an over-clock like I have. (THIS IS NOT A GPU PROBLEM, AS YOU'LL NOTICE IN THE VIDEO THE GPU USAGE IS EXTREMELY LOW DESPITE THE LOW FPS).

 

I'm aware that some CPU optimisation is due, but are we really going to see an increase of 30FPS+ ???  Because that is what it's going to take to satisfy most players such as myself who absolutely need 60FPS as a bare minimum. (First world problems, I know!)

 

I hate it when people casually ask the DEVS to just 'chime in' as if they don't have anything better to do, but in this particular case, I think we could all benefit from hearing from someone involved with developing the game, or even just the maps and their assets.

 

Is this issue going to be sorted? Can we expect enough optimisation to clean up the problem? I'm sure the DEVS are already well aware of this as they must be zipping up and down the map in 3D space as they're designing the level. Surely???

 

 

SHORTER SUMMARY: When looking down the map from higher up, or even down the map from a slightly higher perspective than the ground, FPS can tank considerably, despite no one else playing on the server / game (which eliminates the possibility for the animation system to be the culprit.)

 

 

Any help or feedback on this issue from anyone would be hugely appreciated, as right now, I'm very worried this is going to totally destroy the life of this game for a large majority of us.

 

 

Edit - 3700K @ 4.4Ghz. !

Edited by 00chapmano

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This has been discussed time and time again. There are multiple optimization threads. They are working their tail off to fix stuff.

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Over development time they will be optimizing at various stages and I don't think providing feedback like yours is a bad thing at all. It could be very useful in identifying a particular element that is causing problems. I've reported large fobs causing fps drops and expect the devs will get around to seeing what they can do in due course. If you've posted something I am sure the devs are either aware and are working on it or will look at it and when they have time and will figure out its cause. What your are seeing in your test of fps drop and gpu usage drop is similar to what I'd see with the large fob structures. You also don't appear to have any real change in cpu usage so why you get a fps drop is a bit strange. Something is bugged and, with time, I am confident the devs will sort it.

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It probably needs to be set so that distant objects render with less fidelity or whatever (I barely know what I'm talking about). I think this is what you're seeing here.

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Thanks for taking the effort to get this info. But yes thats why its called Game Development and not Game Building. It's an iterative process, stuff like this takes time. If i remember correctly, they would only focus on optimization when the game hits beta (not saying they wont optimize until then).

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I don't understand why my topic has been moved to the 'Community Support' section. I'm trying to bring a specific issue to the attention others here, largely in an attempt improve more of the general community's understanding of what is really causing certain performance problems.

 

There's too many discussions regarding GPU and general CPU optimisation rubbish. Why can't this be part of the 'General Discussion', where the bigger audience is? And yet in that particular section, we still have morons talking about unparking CPU cores buying new graphics cards...

 

It takes a lot of effort to collate info, record videos and create posts like this. Kind of frustrating!

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Thanks for taking the effort to get this info. But yes thats why its called Game Development and not Game Building. It's an iterative process, stuff like this takes time. If i remember correctly, they would only focus on optimization when the game hits beta (not saying they wont optimize until then).

 

Understood. And I'm not complaining. Just merely pointing something out that I really haven't seen anyone else mention specifically. I've been sat on this info for a while, pondering whether it's worth mentioning. Someone's gotta do it.

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If you analyze the stat unit, you can clearly see what is the bottlneck. It is the draw thread. So your CPU is the bottlneck in this particular situation. You can buy better CPU, like 6700k and clock it to 4.6+ Ghz and enjoy fluid gameplay at any situations on up to 72 player servers. Devs can limit number of draw calls if they wish when and if they add choppers. Good thing is that main point of DX 12 (and UE4 will adopt it) is reducing the draw call time.

 

 

As for now, CPU is the bottlneck, either GAME thread (full 72 player server), or in some maps from some perspective DRAW thread. 

 

For me, on my i5 6600k @4,7 GHZ it is enjoyable as it is, and it will only run better.

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I'm running 3700K @ 4.4Ghz. There isn't a CPU in the world that will make up a 30FPS difference, as required in this scenario.

 

Although I am about to buy a Skylake for a new machine, I'm not expecting to see any more than extra single-digit FPS.

 

Are you really telling me you can reproduce the steps in my video and NOT experience a considerable drop in frames? Or are you saying you can tolerate it for the mean time? Because I can too - just hoping it is something that will be sorted.

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I personally (and hope others as well) would like to thank you for your efforts to narrow down where performance issues that need addressing can be found. A continued discussion isn't really going to help as it's really for the Devs to root out the problem and fix it. Providing your hardware specs is equally important as the performance issue as well to eliminate that as a possibly cause.

At the moment the Devs will openly admit some of the work they have done may not have been done in the best way to maintain performance whether by design for testing or by mistake i.e. animations. I hope your efforts help them in making progress with the game.

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I'm running 3700K @ 4.4Ghz. There isn't a CPU in the world that will make up a 30FPS difference, as required in this scenario.

 

Although I am about to buy a Skylake for a new machine, I'm not expecting to see any more than extra single-digit FPS.

 

Are you really telling me you can reproduce the steps in my video and NOT experience a considerable drop in frames? Or are you saying you can tolerate it for the mean time? Because I can too - just hoping it is something that will be sorted.

 

Friend, if i find time i will reproduce your steps on your video, and im shure i WILL have considrable drop in frames. I can tolerate drops, becouse as you know withy your system you are not having that kind of drops in normal gameplay.

Everyone has drops, but if you have good enough system (i think you do), they are not that significant in normal gameplay ( you dont fly).

 

Im scientist and engineer, and i like to analyze stuff, so when i find time , i wil try to simulate your test.

And as a player i would like to thank you for time and effort you invested to point the issue  B)

 

I enjoy squad, and im not rich, but i can afford to buy system to please me (i like flight sims, ARMA, and starcraft, and all are CPU bottlnecked). I would like to point for some players who dont have money, or plan to invest in some components  (like for example new GPU), that they wont gain much in this game. So rather invest in best CPU you can afford, and cooling, and overclock it.

 

Check this https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/Engine/Performance/

Edited by zaira

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I personally (and hope others as well) would like to thank you for your efforts to narrow down where performance issues that need addressing can be found. A continued discussion isn't really going to help as it's really for the Devs to root out the problem and fix it. Providing your hardware specs is equally important as the performance issue as well to eliminate that as a possibly cause.

At the moment the Devs will openly admit some of the work they have done may not have been done in the best way to maintain performance whether by design for testing or by mistake i.e. animations. I hope your efforts help them in making progress with the game.

 

Thank you. Yes, that was absolutely my intention - I simply wanted to bring it to their attention as it can be very hard for someone who actually knows what they're talking about to cut through the opinions of the other less-informed users regarding performance issues. 

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Friend, if i find time i will reproduce your steps on your video, and im shure i WILL have considrable drop in frames. I can tolerate drops, becouse as you know withy your system you are not having that kind of drops in normal gameplay.

Everyone has drops, but if you have good enough system (i think you do), they are not that significant in normal gameplay ( you dont fly).

 

Im scientist and engineer, and i like to analyze stuff, so when i find time , i wil try to simulate your test.

And as a player i would like to thank you for time and effort you invested to point the issue  B)

 

I enjoy squad, and im not rich, but i can afford to buy system to please me (i like flight sims, ARMA, and starcraft, and all are CPU bottlnecked). I would like to point for some players who dont have money, or plan to invest in some components  (like for example new GPU), that they wont gain much in this game. So rather invest in best CPU you can afford, and cooling, and overclock it.

 

Check this https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/Engine/Performance/

 

 

I'm totally with you on all of this. I waited and waited for ARMA (2), naively thinking the performance would improve eventually - couldn't have been more wrong. This is what initially spurred me on learning about how important the CPU actually is, and eventually ended up analysing the data from ARMA (and many other CPU bound games), and made me shell out for the latest CPUs along with overclocking the crap out of them.

 

I'm tired of hearing people debating over which GPU to buy for games that are actually CPU bound.

 

I'm sure you understand where I'm coming from.

 

(I probably should have included all this in the original post...)

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Everyone has drops, but if you have good enough system (i think you do), they are not that significant in normal gameplay ( you dont fly).

 

You may not fly now but they will have to sort it before they introduce aircraft. Best to know early you have a problem than once you have built on it.

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I am not going to go into great detail here BUT. 

 

We constantly profile the game and are aware of most of the system specific bottlenecks that the users are facing

 

Your tests are illustrating the effects of the foliage system in terms of draw calls on a map which isnt even close to hardening phase at this time. 

 

here is a brief list of actions that would typically be taken to harden a map. 

 

1. Foliage density adjustments to "right size" the draw calls while keeping desired foliage density. 

 

2. Utilizing instancing in blueprints (usually we will combine a compound or group of statics into a single blueprint as the map gets more done)

 

3. Generating Distance field shadows and pulling in the cascade shadows to reduce their overhead.  (currently FPS neutral but expecting epics optimizations)

 

4. Generating LOD groups via Epics MLOD system to better optimize overall draw call grouping. (Still a pretty young system)

 

5. Profiling texture vram usage and making adjustments where needed

 

6. Right sizing foliage to best optimize overdraw.

 

and a bunch bunch more from the code side including montoring effects costs and lifetime as well as garbage collection. 

 

 

 

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There you go ^. There on it.  ;)

 

Thanks for taking the time IrOnTaxi, once again, to show the masses we've all invested in a great team. 

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I am not going to go into great detail here BUT. 

 

We constantly profile the game and are aware of most of the system specific bottlenecks that the users are facing

 

Your tests are illustrating the effects of the foliage system in terms of draw calls on a map which isnt even close to hardening phase at this time. 

 

here is a brief list of actions that would typically be taken to harden a map. 

 

1. Foliage density adjustments to "right size" the draw calls while keeping desired foliage density. 

 

2. Utilizing instancing in blueprints (usually we will combine a compound or group of statics into a single blueprint as the map gets more done)

 

3. Generating Distance field shadows and pulling in the cascade shadows to reduce their overhead.  (currently FPS neutral but expecting epics optimizations)

 

4. Generating LOD groups via Epics MLOD system to better optimize overall draw call grouping. (Still a pretty young system)

 

5. Profiling texture vram usage and making adjustments where needed

 

6. Right sizing foliage to best optimize overdraw.

 

and a bunch bunch more from the code side including montoring effects costs and lifetime as well as garbage collection. 

 

 

This is literally the best news I think I've ever heard!

 

Thanks again irOnTaxi. 

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How to enable flying, cant find console command


How to enable flying, cant find console command


How to enable flying, cant find console command

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How to enable flying, cant find console command

How to enable flying, cant find console command

How to enable flying, cant find console command

 

SHIFT + P

 

Use SPACE, SHIFT AND W,S,A,D to move.

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Ok, there is video with detail about my system, all info. I didnt use MSI afterburner overlay becouse i have GB oc software, but i did open task manager/performance. I forgot to check sensors on gpu-z, but GPU usage drops to 70%.

 

For this game, CPU with best IPC is best benefit. Performance difference is big, compared to your system.

 

 

i5 6600k, @4,7, noctua nhd14

GB 970 oc, @ +120 on clocks, and 8000 GHz DDR and vents on 25% (all the temp range...im low noise freak)

RAM 2x16 ripjaws 5 3000+ 2x4 patriot 3000, at patriots XMP CAS 16 (3000)

 

 

I found later that OC profile on my GPU wasnt loaded, i get like 10%+ average fps on same simulation

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Ok, there is video with detail about my system, all info. I didnt use MSI afterburner overlay becouse i have GB oc software, but i did open task manager/performance. I forgot to check sensors on gpu-z, but GPU usage drops to 70%.

 

For this game, CPU with best IPC is best benefit. Performance difference is big, compared to your system.

 

 

i5 6600k, @4,7, noctua nhd14

GB 970 oc, @ +120 on clocks, and 8000 GHz DDR and vents on 25% (all the temp range...im low noise freak)

RAM 2x16 ripjaws 5 3000+ 2x4 patriot 3000, at patriots XMP CAS 16 (3000)

 

 

I found later that OC profile on my GPU wasnt loaded, i get like 10%+ average fps on same simulation

 

Wow. I'm really glad you did this, as I can now get a much better idea of the improvement in performance I can expect when upgrading my CPU. Thanks!

 

Can't wait to get Skylake! :)

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