Jump to content
tooner

AH-1Z Viper helicopter flight model

Recommended Posts

I gave it a quick go, pretty good. As people pointed out though, it feels like you don't fall fast enough when diving and you have to nose down too much to gain speed. Another thing I'd like to point out is that you're able to yaw too much when moving at speed, you can do a 360-degree spin at like 100kph/kts/whatever it's in. Also, it feels like you decelerate too quickly when you level out.  Other than that, I really like the feeling of weight and momentum it has - It seems like it'd be challenging but not to the point of inaccessibility. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds like Iceman might actually fly helicopters. I'd hit him up, and others, on the control mech. I have a friend that is a helicopter pilot (civilian) that I could possibly get to check the feedback as well if you need it. LMK, and it looks great tooner. Keep up the awesome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks great. I didn't tried it yet but seeing on video it looks like you have tilt the nose down pretty much to gain speed. And also whats the pedal feedbeck at higher speeds? Its common mistake in manny games. They lower the pedal controls almost on 0 when helicopter reaches high speeds and thats where they make fatal flight model mistake. Hope they won't make that mistake in squad.

Its tough to play for real pilots it breaks our hearts :(

 

Thanks for the input. Like I said earlier - I never flew a real helicopter so I got no idea how they handle IRL, and what forces act on them precisely, if you could provide more info that would be great so I can improve the model. About the tail rotor - could you explain how it exactly behaves at higher speeds?

 

 

Sounds like Iceman might actually fly helicopters. I'd hit him up, and others, on the control mech. I have a friend that is a helicopter pilot (civilian) that I could possibly get to check the feedback as well if you need it. LMK, and it looks great tooner. Keep up the awesome.

 

Thanks. If you could ask your friend if he could provide some theoretical knowledge that would be nice :)

 

 

Yesterday I managed to set up the demo with rift DK1 (was a bit pain to fix the head offset because DK1 has no positional tracking...) and holy shit it was fun to fly even on such a blurry screen, I did at least 20 laps around the map with a big smile on my face, it felt very real.

 

I've been also working on setting up the minigun, I made it to follow mouse input and when you mouse look it follows the camera rotation. With Rift turned on the gun looks where the pilot is looking, which is pretty neat feature.

 

Here's a short vid:

 

https://youtu.be/UgZVrNDsFBw

 

I'll upload the flight demo with rift after I fix the hud for it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pleeeeease remove the "70-90 degree angle to move forward"... its one of the most annoying things that new games have in their flightmodel, as you cant fly like that for a long time without building momentum and fall from the skies like a brick. Also reduce the tailrotor control at higher speed as iceman mentioned. PR has one of the only heli-flightmodels that actually makes the helicopter "heavy", especially the Mi-24 and 28

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PR's flight model is shit to be honest, but atleast its not worst then arma3's PR devs made a great improvent from bf2 vanilla flight model.

Rudder is working and it always will on higher speeds but not as much as in hover. It DOSEN'T drasticaly fall like that like in PR so pls keep that in mind.

The simple way to figure out how does helicopter fly is to learn first how plane flies. There is no big difference in those two aircraft when it comes to lift force. Just imagine helicopter's main rotor as some circular wing picture will be much clear.

Your flight model looks good though I didn't have time yet to test it.

If you need any info or data feel free to ask any time .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PR's flight model is shit to be honest, but atleast its not worst then arma3's PR devs made a great improvent from bf2 vanilla flight model.

Rudder is working and it always will on higher speeds but not as much as in hover. It DOSEN'T drasticaly fall like that like in PR so pls keep that in mind.

The simple way to figure out how does helicopter fly is to learn first how plane flies. There is no big difference in those two aircraft when it comes to lift force. Just imagine helicopter's main rotor as some circular wing picture will be much clear.

Your flight model looks good though I didn't have time yet to test it.

If you need any info or data feel free to ask any time .

 

ok then I'll go and try to re-design it with that in mind. 

At first I'll describe you how it is right now more or less, and then you correct me if there's something wrong with my thinking or my assumptions.

 

Helicopter at ideal hover producest a lift force which is perpendicular to the area of rotor disc. This force counteracts the gravity force of 1G acting on it in the opposite vector.

- So for simplicity we can say the magnitude of lift force is equal to 1G (at hover).

- If we apply full throttle, the lift force goes up to 1.3G which results in climb rate of 15m/s (just like IRL)

- When the total velocity reaches ~15m/s or 30 knots, a translational lift force is applied the same direction as the lift vector, it starts at 0 and then goes up to 0.5G at 90m/s velocity (here is the curve http://gyazo.com/5acc6ae9533a52d6e7aff2648161acee)

- at about 25m/s I add slip stream velocity acting longitudinally along rotor blades to reproduce the intertia effect and give it forward speed.

- drag force is applied at hover and increases with total velocity - it dampens all velocities acting on the helicopter.

 

now I know this isn't perfect but I didn't have any better ideas on how to simulate the lift effect.

Please write if my assumptions are correct and how possibly I could improve on that model or do I have to take a different approach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

more lift is not generated by the increse of throtle its is generated by adjusting rotor blades angle of attack with your collective control. Ofcours pull collective too much results rotor underspeed and probably crash if pilot dosent react fast. All other sounds pretty much ok allthough I'm not cobra pilot so I can't really say much about here becuase every chopper has its own personality limitations etc...

To transit from hover flight to foward try making the actual helicopters rotor tilt foward and chopper a bit. Right now it looks like the rotor is in fixed position and thats causing your model to tilt nose so hard so it can gather speed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

more lift is not generated by the increse of throtle its is generated by adjusting rotor blades angle of attack with your collective control. Ofcours pull collective too much results rotor underspeed and probably crash if pilot dosent react fast. All other sounds pretty much ok allthough I'm not cobra pilot so I can't really say much about here becuase every chopper has its own personality limitations etc...

To transit from hover flight to foward try making the actual helicopters rotor tilt foward and chopper a bit. Right now it looks like the rotor is in fixed position and thats causing your model to tilt nose so hard so it can gather speed.

 

When I push the stick forward (pitch down), the main rotor tilts forward few degrees (you can see it on the video before takeoff). It shifts the force of the main rotor forward compared to center of gravity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Tooner,

very impressed by the demo, I just applied as a developer by email in case you need help with physics. 

 

I am the maker or HTR physics upgrade for FSX and some other projects (combat helo, Arma3).... maybe I can help ..

 

bye

Fred

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Damn, that looks great. Talked to any Squad devs yet about joining the team/them buying the work of you? It could save so much time and you also seem to know your stuff. Good job.

 

EDIT: Also checked out your YouTube channel, that LAV looks pretty dope as well. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey guys! 

A small update on the project. I re-made the flight model almost from scratch due to feedback on the previous demo and some more studying on how helicopters work. Now its now a bit more agile at low speed and easier to control during high speed or dive flight. It still needs some fine tuning of air resistance and rotor lift curves, but I'm very happy with it so far, it's really fun to fly and not trivial to control the chopper, it behaves different at various speeds and angles of attack now, takes time to get used to :) Added a ground effect which increases lift when heli rotor is up to 15m above ground or other objects(linear). I also added a basic system which allows switching pylon loadouts - right now only 2 loadouts are present - 2x hellfire + 2x hydra launchers or 4x hellfire launchers (max 16 hellfires total). Eventually I'd like to make a hangar where you can choose the loadout of each pylon, main cannon, paint color and add decals, etc.

 

Here is the video of the new flight model:

 

 

 

 

Hi Tooner,

very impressed by the demo, I just applied as a developer by email in case you need help with physics. 

 

I am the maker or HTR physics upgrade for FSX and some other projects (combat helo, Arma3).... maybe I can help ..

 

bye

Fred

 

Hey Fred.

I'm glad you liked the demo. I'm not a Squad developer. This is my own small project which is not a part of any game, I intend to release it as a demo with VR support, basic ground AI (infantry and vehicles) and basic 2 player multiplayer coop (pilot/gunner). If you'd like to work together or something like this, PM me your contact details :)

 

 

 

Damn, that looks great. Talked to any Squad devs yet about joining the team/them buying the work of you? It could save so much time and you also seem to know your stuff. Good job.

 

EDIT: Also checked out your YouTube channel, that LAV looks pretty dope as well. 

 

Thanks! I didn't talk to devs because I'm still too green in UE4 :) Devs would have no use of my demo because it's very spaghetti right now, just a simple prototype. It may be of use after I make the flight mechanic a separate component, but that's still long way to go.

 

I'll upload a playable version next week after I clean it up a bit (any feedback and suggestions are welcome) :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Holy shit! This looks fantastic, and it actually looks realistic. Is is at all possible to code the rotor physics to snap off when performing roll and flips at high speeds?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Holy shit! This looks fantastic, and it actually looks realistic. Is is at all possible to code the rotor physics to snap off when performing roll and flips at high speeds?

 

Thanks :) Yes, it is possible to make mast bumping and separation effect because the rotor blades and mast are all separate actors, but I don't think that happens anymore on todays new helicopters (it used to be a problem in older designed ones like Super Cobra 1W).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks :) Yes, it is possible to make mast bumping and separation effect because the rotor blades and mast are all separate actors, but I don't think that happens anymore on todays new helicopters (it used to be a problem in older designed ones like Super Cobra 1W).

 

Aaah Well done to you Sir tooner being a part of Squad development team!

 

Now, have you Fix that Squeaky APC turret ring or do you still need a supply of WD40!?... :lol:

 

tumblr_m66tehgaPz1roy4d0.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks :) Yes, it is possible to make mast bumping and separation effect because the rotor blades and mast are all separate actors, but I don't think that happens anymore on todays new helicopters (it used to be a problem in older designed ones like Super Cobra 1W).

Hey Tooner awesome work. I think what the guy meant is that the rotors can only withstand a certain amount of G-forces and flutter. Just like the wings of planes. Imagine diving with a small plane at a high altitude increasing the speed of the small plane until it reaches a really high speed and then trying to do a loop. The G-forces will snap the wings off in the worse case. This means that all planes have a certain speed they must never exceed, because either the flutter or the G-forces will risk destroying to aircraft.

 

The same is valid for helicopters I belive. If you exceed the max velocity of the cobra and do something like rolling, a loop or even more simple things you risk the rotors breaking off due to the G-forces. Even just going too fast will damage the heli due to a thing called flutter.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Tooner awesome work. I think what the guy meant is that the rotors can only withstand a certain amount of G-forces and flutter. Just like the wings of planes. Imagine diving with a small plane at a high altitude increasing the speed of the small plane until it reaches a really high speed and then trying to do a loop. The G-forces will snap the wings off in the worse case. This means that all planes have a certain speed they must never exceed, because either the flutter or the G-forces will risk destroying to aircraft.

The same is valid for helicopters I belive. If you exceed the max velocity of the cobra and do something like rolling, a loop or even more simple things you risk the rotors breaking off due to the G-forces. Even just going too fast will damage the heli due to a thing called flutter.

It all depend on angular acceleration. You can not be over max speed put if you perform a very tight loop ie very high angular acceleration, you can still damage the aircraft. Nowadays all modern aircraft has FBW where flight control surfaces received the pilot input after being analyzed by flight computers and will modify the pilot input if for example it estimate that he will put the aircraft outside the flight enveloppe.

But also all modern fighter has FBW and flight control software not only for protection but for making the aircraft flyable as all modern fighter aircraft is aerodynamically unstable to gain better maneuverability but the flight control computer is there to make it flyable for the pilot, if a failure happens on the flight control computer, the pilot would only be able to eject. If I recall correctly, the f16 was the first aircraft with FBW and full digital control surface ( pilots inputs analysed by the flight control computers and then sent to the actuator to move respectly the flight control surfaces. Bear in mind that in full digital flight control , the pilot by moving the stick ask for a new flight path when stick is released in neutral position, the flight control computer will check if it's possible without going out of the flight enveloppe and if yes, then will ajust the flight control surfaces and trim the elevator accirdingly to meet the pilot demand

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Congratz on becoming a dev Tooner! Can't wait to see what you can do in Squad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like where your head is at man. Making it realistic while not being so difficult its off putting and congrats on being a dev! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I recall correctly, the f16 was the first aircraft with FBW and full digital control surface ( pilots inputs analysed by the flight control computers and then sent to the actuator to move respectly the flight control surfaces.

F-16's "relaxed static stability"/FBW is pretty damn amazing.

 

Tooner, good to see you officially on the roster mate. Your samples look extremely fun, and challenging. Looking forward to seeing more work, especially with the models the team cooks up.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks :) Yes, it is possible to make mast bumping and separation effect because the rotor blades and mast are all separate actors, but I don't think that happens anymore on todays new helicopters (it used to be a problem in older designed ones like Super Cobra 1W).

Did you ever get this to a public release state? I would be very interested to mess around with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×