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tooner   

what he said

 

Ok, but please humor me with a bit of theorycrafting - what if... you don't update the whole voxel terrain data server->client. What if you only have a table of all subtractive objects that occured during gameplay server side? For example, a player wants to join a game already in progress, he doesn't download the whole current terrain data but server sends him the data of all "subtractive events" that occured during gameplay = large caliber explosions, tunnel digging and so on - then client applies this data to his original map which nets him 1:1 replication, could even work with procedurally generated maps. The subtractive objects would be really small too (Vector3 + type + radius). I think the new everquest uses system very similar to this.

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Ok, but please humor me with a bit of theorycrafting - what if... you don't update the whole voxel terrain data server->client. What if you only have a table of all subtractive objects that occured during gameplay server side? For example, a player wants to join a game already in progress, he doesn't download the whole current terrain data but server sends him the data of all "subtractive events" that occured during gameplay = large caliber explosions, tunnel digging and so on - then client applies this data to his original map which nets him 1:1 replication, could even work with procedurally generated maps. The subtractive objects would be really small too (Vector3 + type + radius). I think the new everquest uses system very similar to this.

I made a whole post exactly about this but it dissapeard (or never appeared? ) from my mobile.

My idea was exactly the same. Even more you can just send a position and an id identifying what acted on that position.

Eg. [12, (1234, 50, 2000)] where 12 is the id for T72 Shell and the other 3 are coordinates in the game world.

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IrOnTaXi   

im afraid this is so far down our feature list that i cant even see it coming up for a year or more. just one sacrifice we will make for scale. royawesome has worked with voxels extensively. i take his word as law. :)

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lol I'd have to agree getting the game up and working would be slightly more important. Then that would make one hell of a patch if it were to come to fruition... Would almost make it feel like a whole new game! BUT I'll take a rock solid gaming experience over a buggy lackluster one with deformable terrain 

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Ok, but please humor me with a bit of theorycrafting - what if... you don't update the whole voxel terrain data server->client. What if you only have a table of all subtractive objects that occured during gameplay server side? For example, a player wants to join a game already in progress, he doesn't download the whole current terrain data but server sends him the data of all "subtractive events" that occured during gameplay = large caliber explosions, tunnel digging and so on - then client applies this data to his original map which nets him 1:1 replication, could even work with procedurally generated maps. The subtractive objects would be really small too (Vector3 + type + radius). I think the new everquest uses system very similar to this.

 

The new EQ doesn't just send Subtractive elements because you can add to the world.  It actually sends blocks of voxel data and offsets based on a view distance, and defaulting to the base map if you are out of range of a change.  For example, you can't see changes on one extreme from the other extreme of the map.  

 

It's also VERY bandwidth intensive.  EQ has the benefit of not having players host their own servers.  They can guarantee 100mbps or 1gbps outbound, where Squad cannot make that promise (since you guys will be hosting servers).  

Secondly, with matches that would take an hour+, that's a ton of data in the later stages of the game.  It'd also be very memory intensive if you apply the subtractive geo once and store it, or very processor intensive if you apply it when you can see it.  

 

All in all, if you want to do voxels at non-minecraft resolution, you are limited to very small player counts (20 people max)(and even then you have to make huge compromises in minecraft to get more than 20 players in the game).  

 

They are great for single player games, but the internet infrastructure just isn't there for it.  Once Google Fiber is available to the entire country maybe we can talk about it ;)

 

The 'best' solution is Epic adding support for arrays in their material system and doing real time holes in Landscape by adding elements into an array property in the Landscape hole material.  You could have a foxhole object punch a hole in the terrain and fill it in by it's geometry.  But, again, that's limited by a very specific missing feature in the Unreal Engine.  

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im afraid this is so far down our feature list that i cant even see it coming up for a year or more. just one sacrifice we will make for scale. royawesome has worked with voxels extensively. i take his word as law. :)

Totally agree...game experience is what we want over anythigh else!!...And Yes royawesome is awesome keep it up lads!!... :)

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I have been doing some research on this subject....found this link today....not that it helps much...but shows people are looking into this a lot and want it in the game envirement...

https://forums.unrealengine.com/showthread.php?56515-Terrain-Deformation-System

This guy is looking to hire someone to add this to ureal e4....

Ill keep on researching.....

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+1

I agree, instead of placing a foxhole object onto the map, it would be brilliant to dig a foxhole into the map, please extrapolate what im trying to say but if you could remove squares like minecraft you could build foxholes, obviously it would need to be more aesthetically pleasing

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RJ1   

http://forums.joinsquad.com/topic/3450-buildingstructure-modifying/#entry63875

 

made a thread about this ages ago, I think what I posted is probably the happiest medium you could find.

 

Dynamic terrain deformation seems un-doable according to devs (unless Trench systems are already part of the geometry of a Map) so I suggested the ability to make holes in already existing Models rather than terrain and maybe changing the Maps so you had a few Trenches behind walls and stuff.

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Secret Tunnel Warfare.....saw this last night on NOVA.....cool showed unseen and unknown things about WW1 trenches and tunneling...here it is online:

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/search/results/?q=ww1&x=12&y=11

 

 

The trenches zig zagged in square formations not in straight lines....like we think they were....did you know that?

 

Quote:

 

During World War I, the Allies and Germans repeatedly struggled to break the hideous stalemate of trench warfare. In the winter of 1916, Allied engineers devised a massive surprise attack: over 1 million pounds of explosives hidden in secret tunnels driven under German lines. Building the tunnels was desperate work, with tunnelers at constant risk from flooding, cave-ins, and enemy digging teams. In June of 1917, the planted mines at Messines were simultaneously triggered, killing an estimated 10,000 German troops instantly. Now, archaeologists are revealing the extraordinary scale and risks of the Allied tunneling operations in one of the biggest excavations ever undertaken on the Western Front. “Secret Tunnel Warfare” opens a unique window on the frenzy of Allied mining activity that led up to the attack and its bitter aftermath.

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janat08   

What about making it a sandbag sort of thing where instead of digging you fill up the bags for C shaped wall suitable for lying behind only accesible by MG/scoped roles on limited scale and time. Pretty much like 5/7 sandbags.

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SgtHerhi   

What about making it a sandbag sort of thing where instead of digging you fill up the bags for C shaped wall suitable for lying behind only accesible by MG/scoped roles on limited scale and time. Pretty much like 5/7 sandbags.

This could be a quite a nice touch. To take it a bit further, how would this sound: 

You could choose to pick up a small sandbag - fortification piece from an ammo box and carry it somewhere else (away from FOB build range) and place down as a makeshift gun-emplacement for MG/marksmen/yourself. 

Maybe even have it so you need 2 people to carry separate bags and place them together for it to come together as a tiny fortification. Also because sandbags are quite heavy, you'd move significantly slower while carrying them so the whole team isnt't carrying them "just in case". 

I'll say it here so you guys don't need to but I'm a genious.

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janat08   
On 18.02.2016 at 3:12 AM, SgtHerhi said:

This could be a quite a nice touch. To take it a bit further, how would this sound: 

You could choose to pick up a small sandbag - fortification piece from an ammo box and carry it somewhere else (away from FOB build range) and place down as a makeshift gun-emplacement for MG/marksmen/yourself. 

Maybe even have it so you need 2 people to carry separate bags and place them together for it to come together as a tiny fortification. Also because sandbags are quite heavy, you'd move significantly slower while carrying them so the whole team isnt't carrying them "just in case". 

I'll say it here so you guys don't need to but I'm a genious.

I think that this would make it balanced, but I don't know to what extend it's reasonable for MG guy to entrench himself or any other soldiers at which point within the game it should be represented as him getting sandbags possibly dissapearing as soon as he leaves.

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On 4/19/2015 at 11:29 PM, unfrail said:

hah.

I just thought you were way into...

saying things like they were...

poetry... or William Shatner's.

<3

Just messing, but I was wondering what was up.

In anycase, there has been foxhole conversations, and I think some of the forum members were actually messing with implementations, but it didn't sound promising last time I checked. It would almost be a cool measure if you could use it to road-block and get an MRAP or Hummer to drive into a ditch.  In anycase, if there are no Foxholes, at least there will be sandbags.

HAHA, I think we all read it in the shatner voice

 

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dor   
On 4/22/2015 at 0:16 AM, RoyAwesome said:

 

The new EQ doesn't just send Subtractive elements because you can add to the world.  It actually sends blocks of voxel data and offsets based on a view distance, and defaulting to the base map if you are out of range of a change.  For example, you can't see changes on one extreme from the other extreme of the map.  

 

It's also VERY bandwidth intensive.  EQ has the benefit of not having players host their own servers.  They can guarantee 100mbps or 1gbps outbound, where Squad cannot make that promise (since you guys will be hosting servers).  

Secondly, with matches that would take an hour+, that's a ton of data in the later stages of the game.  It'd also be very memory intensive if you apply the subtractive geo once and store it, or very processor intensive if you apply it when you can see it.  

 

All in all, if you want to do voxels at non-minecraft resolution, you are limited to very small player counts (20 people max)(and even then you have to make huge compromises in minecraft to get more than 20 players in the game).  

 

They are great for single player games, but the internet infrastructure just isn't there for it.  Once Google Fiber is available to the entire country maybe we can talk about it ;)

 

The 'best' solution is Epic adding support for arrays in their material system and doing real time holes in Landscape by adding elements into an array property in the Landscape hole material.  You could have a foxhole object punch a hole in the terrain and fill it in by it's geometry.  But, again, that's limited by a very specific missing feature in the Unreal Engine.  

Sorry for bringing up an old post, but what about:

1. Loading terrain changes if player's distance from them is small.

 (Map is already divided to subgrid-in-a-grid.)

2. Load terrain changes if a player is viewing to the distance (with binoculars or high-optic scopes).

3. Actively send terrain changes when bandwidth usage is *relatively* low, to avoid reaching a peak in bandwidth.

4. Use the players themselves in order to lower server's traffic - the clients will send terrain changes to other clients based on real-world geo proximity.

 This (clause #4) can be  used, for example, to load terrain changes from a distance that is greater than the distance defined in clause #1.

 The server will send the update to 2 clients, and they can transfer the data to 4 other clients and so on (like binary tree).
 All the updates should reach all the relevant players prior to reaching the distance defined in clause #1.

 

Question: How much space (in KB or bytes) does a single object requires?

 

Edit:

We should remember that at a single moment (~1 second), the amount of objects/terrain-changes is limited.

 

Edited by dor

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embecmom   

it was asked for..they put in riflemen can build sandbags.... that's the compromise... sandbags being the glass walls they are now they can be destroyed and offering little to no cover because they are not built high enough when kneeling to offer any ... ultimately sandbags are not worth building for a grunt ... given that you will be shot before you get them built. 

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