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Thonar

My hopes for the Tank-Gameplay

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Heyho Squadies!

I really like the infantry game-play. While it is easy to learn it is pretty hard to master. It feels intuitiv but at the same time it has a realistic feeling without being overly complex.

This is, as I hope, will follow into the vehicle gameplay.

 

In this topic I would like to discuss my ideas/ hopes especially for tanks, without knowing how they played out in PR. I draw my experience out of SteelBeasts Pro PE, which is a full fleched tank simulator.

Despite being a simulator, it did a lot of things correct and simple.

 

Crew-System

While I would like to see a 3-men crew-system, meaning driver, gunner and commander being playable, I would understand when it would only be a two-men-system: Gunner + Commander.

In the two-men-system the commander would be the guy who controls the movement of the tank and this solution seems to be the best IMO.

 

Commander: He "drives" the tank, can look outside the hatch, controls maybe a remote-weapon-station (if available) and gets his own optics. When he uses the optics-mode, he can bring the gun on his sight with a simple left-click on his mouse. With a right-click he can bring his vision on the current sight of the gunner. This would implement a hunter-killer-ability of modern tanks and enhances inner-tank-teamplay. Of course in this case to fire the RWS would need to be on another key, but this shouldn't be a big deal.

With a press on the "prone"-key, he would get the smoke-screen up.

 

Gunner: He shoots the gun over his optics, without the ability to look out on his own. There should be two optics available to him: The "normal" main-optics with thermal-imaging and different zoom-level and a optical-solution with a fixed zoom, no Laser-Range-Finder or Dynamic-Lead as a kind of emergency-optic.

 

Should the tank be only be crewed by a single person, an instant switch between both position should be possible, while driving should also be possible from the gunners-position in such an instance.

 

 

How to fire the gun

As you have seen, I haven't written much about the gunner in the part above.

Shooting a tank-gun should be more complex, than shooting a rifle.

I imagine it the following way, without getting too complex:

1. The player identifies a moving target over his optics

2. With the "Lean"-keys he zoomes onto the target and brings the optic on target. (e.g. with the left-lean-key you change the zoom, with the right-lean-key you turn on/off / change the Thermal-Imager)

3. Middle-Mouse-Click: Lasering the target, when "hit" then he gets a correct echo (he gets a solid red range number into his optics), when he misses (or the laser is blocked) he gets a wrong echo (blinking red number with the measured distance).

4. Right-Mouse-Hold: Because he needs to follow the target with his optics, this way the dynamic lead is "programmed" into the FCS.

5. Left-Mouse-Click: He fires the gun... when he got everything right, he hits the target... if not, he misses. What he needs to learn is to program in the dynamic-lead correctly (when he follows the target too fast during the "hold" period, he shoots in front of it, if he follows it too slow, he shoots behind it).

 

When he got a wrong laser-echo, he needs to either lase again or shoot with a wrong echo by adjusting the distance manually (aiming above the target).

Lasering isn't constantly possible. If you would laser too fast (around lasering every second), the laser might overheat and will need a short cool-down period.

 

After the gun is fired, the crew hears some loading sounds and then a generic voice of the loader with something along the lines "Sabot in", "Sabot loaded", "HEAT in", "HEAT loaded", I don't now the correct terms of our English friends, they might help you out here.

 

When such a system is implemented, using a tank-gun gets far more interesting and realistic. It would even be possible to put in the different mechanics of the nations, when wished, but I think the above system would be fine as a generalization.

 

 

Is the enemy dead?

This is an important point for me:
Everybody knows that an enemy tank is destroyed, when his ammunition cookes off (while we are at it: can we have this please) or he draws the head (his turret flies away)... but when you hit an enemy tank with an APFSDS-round, the only thing you see might be a flash, dust and a standing enemy tank... you don't know if the crew inside is completely dead, if they are only wounded, if the gunner might be even alive and shoot back... you need to wait and see... or sent a 2nd round downrange until you are sure.

Thus the damage-mechanic is important:
Optics, Crew, Ammunition, Tracks, Engine, Turret-Rotation, Stabilizer, LRF, ... should be destroyable if possible and cause different problems to a crew of a tank... while at the same time you could still work with a invisible "health-bar" that renders the tank completely destroyed.

When a tank is destroyed it should just stay there without doing anything most of the time and only with a small chance of a cook-off or explosion (which is of course higher, when the ammunition compartment was hit).

 

 

Armor and Ammunition

It seems the developer are on a good way here from what I found in the forums... but please, can we have working ERA?

 

 

sincerly,

Thonar

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The mouse clicking part a tad confusing.. I hope they stick to Rising Storm type tanks... Where you are able to only look through first person things. I just want an interior model. That's all i'm asking....

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Thing is: Modern Fire-Control-Systems don't work by looking through optics and shooting yourself in on the targets. That is like WWII with modern tanks.

 

Today the gunner need to enter certain values into a Fire-Control-System manually. These values are:

1. Range (simply said, it is actually entering the line of sight of the laser to the target and telling the laser to "shoot" and read a light-echo)

2. The movement of the target (dynamic lead)

3. When to fire.

 

What the gunner does is (and this is different from tank to tank, thus I use here a simplistic way):
He brings the optic on target, uses the Laser-Range-Finder, keeps the optic on the moving target (thus he turns the turret to stay on target), enters the dynamic lead (there are different system to do this, a way is for example pressing a button while following the target with your optics) and then tells the system to shoot.

 

Ingame it looks like this:

1. You identify a target
2. You laser the target to get the rang (My advice would here be to use the middle-mouse-button)

3. You keep your optic on the target and need to enter the dynamic lead into the system (by holding a button, my advice would here be the right mouse button)

4. You shoot and hit.

 

Two things can go wrong here:
1. Problems with the Laser-Range-Finder:

There can be several problems with these system, thus I simplified it.

When you hit your target with the LRF you get into your optic a solid red number showing you the distance to the target. This is what you want.

When something blocks the laser or you miss your target, the red range given in your optic blinks to show you that there is a problem. Thus you need to either laser again or adjust the range manually by shifting your optic up and down (like with a rifle).

That's why you shouldn't be able to laser too fast too often, otherwise these things overheat and need to cool-down, like in rL.

 

2. Problems with dynamic lead:
When you would move your optic faster than the target you see during the time you hold the Dynamic-Lead-key, you would enter a wrong solution into the FCS, thus you miss your shot. That's why you need to follow the movement of your target with your optics correctly. Imagine you aim with your rifle on an enemy and you need to keep your red-dot always on him... except your rifle is fully-stabilized with a thermal imaging system and the enemy is a vehicle.

 

 

 

I personally, can't stand these, excuse me, Battlefield solution to tank warfare, to make tanks like WWII tanks but with modern looking... this is ridiculous and changes how tanks operate completely.

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Sorry to steal your gunnery thread, but I hope tanks are movement restricted by terrain so they're not just used like high speed big gunned taxis to base rape. How do they play in PR currently (sorry, haven't played)?

Watch this video (caution, raw footage):

Very deliberate tactical engagement.

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Speaking of tanks....I remember when playing CM....the shots from sherman tanks would bounce off German tanks head on. You couldn't destroy a German tank in that game without flanking it...the rounds would just richeche off giving you that plink sound. So, I hope these modern tank battles have realistic armor like this where rounds may have a chance to bounce off armor even if that is at all possible in modern weaponry. :)

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Speaking of tanks....I remember when playing CM....the shots from sherman tanks would bounce off German tanks head on. You couldn't destroy a German tank in that game without flanking it...the rounds would just richeche off giving you that plink sound. So, I hope these modern tank battles have realistic armor like this where rounds may have a chance to bounce off armor even if that is at all possible in modern weaponry. :)

 

Modern APFSDS-rounds would only bounce on impact-angles below 15°... and in this case the penetrator would probably fragment instead of "bouncing off", thus a round bouncing of modern armor is highly unlikely, not to say nearly impossible.

HEAT-Rounds on the other hand have "normalizer", meaning they would turn into the armor, when they would hit on too small angles.

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i still wondering about the damage system, if its gona be based on HP bars or a advanced system like in warthunder or maybe a module HP system like in arma.

bsUOIKe.png

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Cool tank battle....check out the soldiers riding on the top of tanks. We ganna have this in Squad? You think.

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What do you guys think of "danger-zones", read a zone in front of the gun in which friendlies can get wounded and killed by the sheer pressure?

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What do you guys think of "danger-zones", read a zone in front of the gun in which friendlies can get wounded and killed by the sheer pressure?

We have LAT backblast damage, don't see why this couldn't be done. 

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What do you guys think of "danger-zones", read a zone in front of the gun in which friendlies can get wounded and killed by the sheer pressure?

I think they had this in BF2 cause I used to get killed sometimes by a tank without getting run over...lol. In BF1942 the tank would st push you out of way unless it ran you over while prone I think although I think I saw tanks pushing even prone players without injuring them.

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In the video of Combat Mission above you also see tanks running over trees....hope squad can have this too. :)

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Hey Squadies, I finally got myself a new PC and can play Squad now fluently, thus I bring up this older post of mine, please don't kill me for doing so^^

 

Just a simple question: Are the new news about how tanks will work in Squad if they come?

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31 minutes ago, Thonar said:

Hey Squadies, I finally got myself a new PC and can play Squad now fluently, thus I bring up this older post of mine, please don't kill me for doing so^^

 

Just a simple question: Are the new news about how tanks will work in Squad if they come?

 

Well of course they will come, no news though. Probably not any for some time ;) I mean we'll probably get IFVs and maybe even helicopters before tanks.

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4 hours ago, Thonar said:

Hey Squadies, I finally got myself a new PC and can play Squad now fluently, thus I bring up this older post of mine, please don't kill me for doing so^^

 

Just a simple question: Are the new news about how tanks will work in Squad if they come?

 

Tanks are most likely a long ways off still. On the other hand, v9 (coming soon) should inclue a couple of tracked vehicles (we've seen the MT-XXX family), so we can at least get a feel for how the tracked motion will work.

Edited by DoctorKamikaze

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