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Ghroznak

Squad is about teamwork, not K/D

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Bring this forward to yesterday I played an hour before i had to go to work and the opposing team wiped us literally in minutes,they had two players with over 40 kills(which for about 20 mins is damn good),which leads me to believe that going solo and ambushing squads is the most effective way to win the round.

 

 

I agree with that !!!

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Bring this forward to yesterday I played an hour before i had to go to work and the opposing team wiped us literally in minutes,they had two players with over 40 kills(which for about 20 mins is damn good),which leads me to believe that going solo and ambushing squads is the most effective way to win the round.

 

I would have my suspicions with scores like that. Now I am not saying that they're cheating script kiddies but getting that many kills in that amount of time would be pretty hard to do. 

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I mostly play as a medic, usually for me to get any kills at all is rare when in that role and so it should be, but as a squad leader I want to know who on the attacking elements of my squad are pulling their weight.  How many deaths is an indicator of many things but can also let me know that either the MEDICS are not doing their job, the squad isnt cohesive enough or the other team are just all over you.

 

I have played games where the number of kills has been as low as 2 for the squad and as high as 90.  I can also tell what sort of area we are efficient in and what needs to improve.

 

Now, if we just had scores then that would tell me sweet fanny adams.

 

I once spent a game lying in a field within a cap zone, not contributing to anything and walked away with some 7K + points.  As a squad we played a minecraft game once, gained phenomal points , lost the game but from the overall scores I gained no 'analysis'.

 

So, to me the KD helps both at an individual level, squad level and team level.

 

I think that they have it just about right...

 

Mell

BVAR

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Based on alot of this feedback the conclusion I see is that score and K/D means nothing.

People getting huge scores for doing nothing, e.g just laying in a field, and people getting low to no score for doing a very critical job, e.g spend entire round on overwatch.

So what good is the whole system then? Seems to have some major flaws, thus making the whole score system have no credibility at all.

Guess I will just stick to the two aforementioned stats... Win/loss and ticket difference at the end.

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Tickets are deaths....so maybe we could have a new ratio to monitor...call it punched your tickets/points earned ratio? :)

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The K/D is needed for accountability of yourself. It is expected that players would be professional and PTFO instead of act like kids and run out killing because they want a high K/D.

But it is okay if only yourself can see it

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I notice a lot of people are saying they prefer the K/D ratio to remain because they "enjoy" seeing it, and then shift the responsibility to the general playerbase to not take it seriously.

 

And yes, I do agree that everyone should be treating KDR mostly as a triviality. But is it reasonable to expect that? What would you rather have, the chance to see your KDR at the end of each round, or an overall less amount of players that put their KDR on the top of their priorities?

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I notice a lot of people are saying they prefer the K/D ratio to remain because they "enjoy" seeing it, and then shift the responsibility to the general playerbase to not take it seriously.

And yes, I do agree that everyone should be treating KDR mostly as a triviality. But is it reasonable to expect that? What would you rather have, the chance to see your KDR at the end of each round, or an overall less amount of players that put their KDR on the top of their priorities?

Both are needed, when people don't care about kdr. It's just as bad as people who do care. I'd rather deal with someone who is effective and has a hard time following the team. Than someone who cannot kill & loses alot of tickets sitting in a fob that's a kill box.

This is similar to the ban guns argument in America.

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The only thing i hear from my squad at the end of the round is how many times they died more than how many kills they did most of the time,meaning it can be used to show how efficient you and your squad are on reviving and covering the medics and so on.Depends because people will have there own perspective on things at the end of the round about K/D ,so i would not be bothered either way.

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Both are needed, when people don't care about kdr. It's just as bad as people who do care. I'd rather deal with someone who is effective and has a hard time following the team. Than someone who cannot kill & loses alot of tickets sitting in a fob that's a kill box.

You just created this imaginary strawman that supposedly sits around doing absolutely nothing while getting himself killed over and over again, and stated that he is the typical player that doesn't care about KDR. Do you honestly believe we'll see an increase of these types of players if the KDR gets absolved?

 

And you're really misunderstanding the issue. No one should expect a change of overall player skill if KDR disappears. But I would wager that a slight change in player MENTALITY would happen, and for the better. At the cost of what, a fix of dopamine at the end of rounds that you do well in?

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You just created this imaginary strawman that supposedly sits around doing absolutely nothing while getting himself killed over and over again, and stated that he is the typical player that doesn't care about KDR. Do you honestly believe we'll see an increase of these types of players if the KDR gets absolved?

 

I didn't create anything, It's pretty common to see players to concentrated on building fobs or getting revived in the middle of a gun battle forgetting about tickets. If people cannot see how they are doing they have no intuitive to do better. It's like going to a gun range, People practice their precision by seeing where the rounds hit. Asking me if I believe we will see an increase is like me asking you if you believe it will change their mentality. The answer is yes, I personally Don't want it. I think it will not do what you expect it to do.

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I didn't create anything, It's pretty common to see players to concentrated on building fobs or getting revived in the middle of a gun battle forgetting about tickets. If people cannot see how they are doing they have no intuitive to do better. It's like going to a gun range, People practice their precision by seeing where the rounds hit. Asking me if I believe we will see an increase is like me asking you if you believe it will change their mentality. The answer is yes, I personally Don't want it. I think it will not do what you expect it to do.

What you're describing are new players. They will improve regardless of the existence of a KDR indicator. Plus, the consequences of death will be much steeper than they are now come the full release, so that will also encourage them to improve. You're inferring that they need a bunch of post-round statistics to spur them into improving, and that's as silly as it sounds.

 

But you're right, there is no way to prove what kind of effect a KDR indicator (or lack thereof) will have on the general playerbase. But the devs will consider both sides of the argument and make their decision from there.

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To all the people saying K/D doesn't matter; it does.

 

You won't achieve anything without killing. The more you kill and the less you get killed the better. I'm not saying it's not important to communicate, work together as a team and attack/defend flags, but if you try all that without caring about kills and deaths you'll do a hell of a lot worse than a player focused on killing more than dying. When your whole squad has this mindset and you have been killing enemies left and right you' want to have a confirmation of kills and deaths, thus the K/D at the end of the round. Removing that is in my mind an indication of kills not being important, when the truth is they are just as important as capping a flag.

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What you're describing are new players. They will improve regardless of the existence of a KDR indicator. Plus, the consequences of death will be much steeper than they are now come the full release, so that will also encourage them to improve. You're inferring that they need a bunch of post-round statistics to spur them into improving, and that's as silly as it sounds.

 

But you're right, there is no way to prove what kind of effect a KDR indicator (or lack thereof) will have on the general playerbase. But the devs will consider both sides of the argument and make their decision from there.

That's fine, It sounds silly to me that you think it will not spur them into improving. I'm talking about players in general. Seems we are bound with our different opinons, Good talk.

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well, yesterday i played a match on fool's road that started really awesome!

we approached the first flag and i being the DMR guy went for a good vantage point.

i asked the SL where he expected the enemy to come from, E/NE he said, and he was damn right.

i was able to drop almost the entire first enemy attack wave without being spotted, yaay.

 

then the second wave came, i was killed and had to respawn at base with two another guys.

 

the squad was split, SL with a few guys already went for the next flag and the rest and i had to fight through some

randolmy appearing enemy forces. we managed to get through and brought the squad together again.

 

together with another squad we managed to capture all flags and we ended up digging ourselves in on the top hill bunker facility (ammunition depot i think!?)

 

then chaos broke out, our SL got disconnected or left and nobody knew what to do.

 

i ended up being SL without noticing for a good while, shortly after we were overrun from all sides,

which ended up with the enemy on one side rushing and another squad coming from the other side, assuming we were the enemy.

 

i had to drop two or three friendlies as they just continued to shoot at us not realizing we were friendly.

i screamed into my mic that we had to hold this position as i didn't know better but nobody responded they just died and respawned one after another.

 

being really pissed i passed the SL role to another teammate, dropped some smoke and escaped from the death trap FOB that was built on that hilltop.

 

so as teamwork did not, uhm...WORK anymore i decited to go RAMBO because there was absolutely nothing else to do.

i basically ran in circles on that hilltop and dropped everything i could see,

endng up with a fairly nice K/D, which at the end was the only thing that was satisfying about that match...

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My kd has been sub 1.0 since bf2 but I am a very effective squad leader . In bf2 it was as a spawn Cow and ammo guy. In 3 and 4 its get a beacon on the flag at all costs. Mvp or close to it most games and regularly turn losing teams into winning teams with a good squad . Flag caps and defends > staying alive. At least in bf.

My point? You don't need a high kd to help the team win. Not even one > 1.0 in a conquest game.

Not sure how it works in squad . Will purchase soon.

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The only thing i hear from my squad at the end of the round is how many times they died more than how many kills they did most of the time,meaning it can be used to show how efficient you and your squad are on reviving and covering the medics and so on.Depends because people will have there own perspective on things at the end of the round about K/D ,so i would not be bothered either way.

 

 

I'm pretty sure the discussion about how many times they died and how many kills they got is triggered simply because that's the information available at the end of the battle, so it is a really easy thing to start discussing. The numbers are basically right there in your face. If the K/D was not shown I am pretty sure the discussion would be completely different, and most likely aimed more at how different situations that arose were handled. Which, in my opinion at least, would be a more constructive discussion than just "Check it out guys, I got 37 kills!"

 

To all the people saying K/D doesn't matter; it does.

 

You won't achieve anything without killing. The more you kill and the less you get killed the better. I'm not saying it's not important to communicate, work together as a team and attack/defend flags, but if you try all that without caring about kills and deaths you'll do a hell of a lot worse than a player focused on killing more than dying. When your whole squad has this mindset and you have been killing enemies left and right you' want to have a confirmation of kills and deaths, thus the K/D at the end of the round. Removing that is in my mind an indication of kills not being important, when the truth is they are just as important as capping a flag.

 

I agree that killing enemy is an obvious objective in itself. However, I doubt players will simply drop their guns and become pacifists just because the K/D isn't shown. Everyone knows that in a war game you need to kill the enemy so that focus is never lost. If you see enemies within range, or something shoots at you, then you shoot back.

 

The issue with promoting K/D at end of battle screen is that some (obviously not everyone) will then think they need to get lots of kills to show how good they are, which can often lead to unnecessary risks being taken during combat, or players not being motivated to follow up on tasks which leads them away from fire-fights (as mentioned, overwatch, covering a sector that is currently not under attack and so on).

 

Also, capturing flags and disabling FOB's is worth much more than kills. If you die 5 times, and get no kills, but manage to disable an FOB you made the enemy lose 10 tickets, ergo 10 lives... so your technical K/D would be 10:5, or 2:1. Which is quite good. Therefore, focusing on taking down FOB's and especially capturing flags (which incurs 20 ticket loss) is much more important than K/D.

 

In fact, it would make more sense to see a listing of FOB's destroyed vs lost, and flags captured vs lost, than seeing the individual K/D ratios.

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I follow orders. If I happen to take out 2 or 3 guys out for every one of my deaths then so be it. I'll have 2.0 kd games and I'll have terribly negative games. But there's a little bit of pride in being able to out gun the enemy. Be it 200 meters away with an acog, 5 away meters with an ak, or 300 meters away with a 40mm grenade. I guess battlefield (bc2, vietnam, 3,4) has corrupted me. I find myself staying to the end of shitty games to see my score. 

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It would be good if there were as each see only their KD. I enjoy playing the presence of my friends.

For years I play PR by teamwork, not by KD, but I believe that many players still like many kills...

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A 21-7 score means a KDR of 3.0 but also that you took 21 tickets of your enemy's team and cost 7 tickets of your team.

 

Take a whole team of extremely good teamwork players but with a KDR of 0.5 and you loose the game.

There will always have players that play kills and players that play teamwork to support them.

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I think K/D is interesting and I don't over-value it. But when at the end of a match with my squad that all played together well, one of my squad members ended up with 32-2 (our medics did exceptionally well in keeping our whole squad from dying, we all had very few deaths), that's interesting to say the least. That's a total of 30 tickets, funneled by the rest of the squad through valuable communications and revives, through his grenade launcher and aiming skill, down onto the enemy. That's making a significant impact on the game's outcome. His kills and deaths weren't the goal of the game, and everybody in the squad felt satisfied with how we did as a squad, but I was still proud of his score. Seeing only points wouldn't have meant all that much to me. Points don't make sense because sometimes you get points for doing nothing, or no points for doing everything. One Insurgency game I ended up at the bottom with my squad score-wise, even though we single-handedly destroyed all 4 of the caches and made our team win - I was very proud of my squad.

 

Kills and deaths do matter. They're not the end goal, but they matter in the game's outcome. Should you make them invisible to keep players from seeing that score as a 'goal'? I think not. Scores aren't sorted by kills, but by points. Squads aren't sorted at all. And the game's outcome and how you feel about your squad, more than anything else, determines how well you did as a team.

 

When the devs "fix" the control point captures being significantly more impactful on the game's outcome, kills will become even less relevant even if they are visible. In fact, I'd like them to include revives and shots per kill also. Perhaps even headshots. :) ..But I think I already mentioned that. :P

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A 21-7 score means a KDR of 3.0 but also that you took 21 tickets of your enemy's team and cost 7 tickets of your team.

 

Take a whole team of extremely good teamwork players but with a KDR of 0.5 and you loose the game.

There will always have players that play kills and players that play teamwork to support them.

They're re-working that system to a more objective-oriented one though in the next major update:

It will be changed in the next major patch. Objectives will win games, kills won't. Kills will aid you in making it safer to take objectives that will then win you the game.

Details to follow in the next major update.

https://www.reddit.com/r/joinsquad/comments/3zmlzj/ticket_system/cyng9mc

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As long as the end of the round is based on tickets, people will still benefits K/D rather Teamplay.

I think that a good solution will be to make the end of a round based on points rather on tickets and kills won't affect the points

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