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One need not look far to see many of us who are disappointed in where our favorite game has gone. Whether it be rallies, run speed, tankopters, or suppression, there has been a progression toward an alternate style of play that does not align with the current or original aim of the game. I often see us blaming new players for the deviation in game-play. That attitude only berates our fresh players, and is an error of attribution. It is not the new player’s fault that they roam about lone-wolf, dispersing throughout objectives shooting enemies, but it is the game itself for encouraging and rewarding that play-style with kills and relevant impact on the battlefield. To be clear, there are some things that need to be more hardcore, and there are some things that need to be easy and simplified. The key to making the game the best it can be is knowing what to complicate, and what to simplify. No easy task. There are some games that do a great job of this, but referencing and comparing them only seems to make members vulnerable to prejudice, splitting the community into opposing fields of thought. Will try to keep discussion in the context of Squad here. Also, this thread could be interpreted as being negative, as we’re only talking about the bad things concerning one of the best games ever made. To be sure, Squad has very many amazing, perfectly implemented features, such as the best VOIP I’ve ever experienced in a game and much more. Only constructive criticism here. PURPOSE - To provide an organized, updated list, and description of various changes to Squad game-play from the community that may be used to influence development of mods, but wishfully, the game. No overhauls or new content. Only discussion regarding game-play adjustments. DEFINITIONS - For clarity. ADS - Aim Down Sights mode aka right-click. Muzzle Sway - The movement of sight picture while ADS is engaged. Suppression - The disorienting effects felt when receiving fire. ISSUES - A list of mechanics that are holding Squad back. 1. Rally Spawning in the game favors a “throw your body at the objective” play-style. Squads may approach an objective, lay a rally that essentially acts as a FOB, and then proceed to assault. And then again. And again. You also get spawn-killed in this game. - A rally that lasts only a short time, which would be used to hmm “rally” a damaged Squad back together, and that is instantly disabled automatically by local enemy presence. I see this as cutting some frustration out of the game while attacking or defending (Wehmann). 2. FOB Spawning in the game is frustrating on attack. You must find and undig that radio, or all your squad’s efforts are pointless and the enemy team will spawn in greater force and seek you out. It is too difficult to disable a spawn and it is silly to surround a compound only to face waves of the same players respawning directly in front of you. - Increase range at which enemy presence disables spawn. 3. Suppression plays no role. It may darken the screen a tad, but it does nothing to dissuade return fire or impede the ease of doing so. There is no point in suppressing an enemy when you can easily pop him in the head. The purpose of suppression is to instill that “wtf I should keep my head down” effect that you would get IRL, but don’t otherwise get in game because, well, it’s a game. Current suppression does not do anything more than indicate that someone is doing a poor job of killing you. - There are many ways to implement meaningful suppression. Muzzle sway. Blur. Some gamers hate these things; some love them. One thing for sure: you’re not going to get meaningful suppression without them. 4. Small-arms are very easy to use. It is great that we do not have random bullet deviation. Game-play that the player has no control over is generally bad for games. What we do have is a great muzzle sway system that is capable of emulating the difficulty that is hitting a bullseye with your rifle without sacrificing skill or realism. So why is muzzle sway practically absent in Squad? If you hold shift, you get 0 muzzle sway in this game. This in combination with speedy stamina regeneration greatly buffs the lone-wolf. The lone-wolves, who are hard to detect and dispersed throughout the map, are too often able to locate organized squads and pop them all in the head before they know the direction of the shooter. I have done this time and time again in Squad, and the game encourages it. It is a good way to get many kills. - Increase the difficulty in aiming and shooting, whether by muzzle sway or other means. This and actual suppression prevents your average FPS player from effortlessly annihilating multiple unaware opponents because they were unpredictably roaming about the map solo. For the love of god. It is so easy. 5. Vehicles are annoying to control. It feels like gliding on ice. Maybe if they were reasonable in terms of game-play rather than realism(?), they wouldn’t have to be buffed so hard in health versus infantry equipment. Not very opinionated on this one. Will add what you guys think. - Simplify the lag-input/whatever it is to make vehicles less annoying to control? Followed by more reasonable damage? - Personally I feel that the driver for certain vehicles should get a “commander” view option in addition to his current view so it is not so terribly boring being the driver. Driving sucks! Not a fan of having to bring that 3rd person to help spot those lone HAT boys running around trying to kill you. Just another infantry man off the battlefield. I know some people feel strongly about this, so can remove this from the list upon further discussion. Ending Note - Of course, the best possible variation of game-play may be a combination of several different solutions, or may lack a solution entirely. Help me come up with solutions or issues, and I will add them to this list. I am an avid modder of games and am always interested in hearing people’s ideas on how to fix things. The mods Athena and/or Hardened by Battle could someday be the saving grace of this game, but it would be best if the base game was made good as is. A common response to these types of complaints is that the devs know exactly what they’re doing and it is their intention to guide the game toward a ca$ual player-base in hopes of selling more copies, and so it is useless to bring up these issues. Firstly, the Steam Store page for Squad specifically describes the original goal of the game, so no new purchasers are under the illusion that they are buying another battlefield game. The devs clearly aren’t marketing for that casual crowd. At least not intentionally. Secondly, if it is true that they are, this incomprehensive list, if not for the devs, is for modders like me to return to and read ideas concerning how things can be adjusted. Thanks for reading and discussing, fam.
killerorange posted a topic in Feedback & SuggestionsWhy the Rally Point concept is good: I think rally points are an essential part of Squad. They incentivize players to join squads, force squad leaders to think ahead before engaging the enemy, and provide "reinforcements" that allow for sustained battles. And of course, they keep players close to the action. The current problem with Rally Points: Right now, however, rally points are overpowered, and overly forgiving to players. They are easy to hide, easy to refresh, provide 9 spawns each, and generally reduce the penalty for dying to about 1 minute before you're back on the front line. A smart squad leader can keep a rally fresh forever, and troops will spawn in, rush the enemy, die, and do it all over again. Giving up often means you can get back to the fight quicker to help your team. And of course, since everyone spawns in individually, cohesion quickly disappears. This is the current situation in Squad. Why is that a problem? 1. Players should be afraid to die. Think about it. Why does Squad have the suppression system, sound effects that make you shit your pants, and the camera shaking when a mortar hits next to you? To make you scared, to make you hit the deck and try to work out what your next move is. To make you THINK, not just shoot. But in reality, dying in Squad isn't a big deal, so there are rarely moment where you need to make decisions like "should I engage that enemy over there?" The answer is pretty much always "yes." 2. A lost firefight should not mark the end of squad cohesion. When I lead a squad, most unfavorable engagements end the same way. Half the squad is fighting in a building, a few are dead, spawning at Rally one at a time, running back to the building. They get there as other squadmates die and the process continues as I try to find someone to help me refresh the rally. Eventually the Rally gets wiped, and I have to spawn in with some people at a FOB while the rest of my squad is still fighting at the objective. We are no longer working as a unit. So how do we make sure that Squad Lives Matter? How do we get squads to stick together when players are dying? The (potential) solution: Squad Respawn I propose we make each Rally Point good for one full "squad respawn", instead of 9 individual respawns. Instead of waiting a set amount of time to spawn at a Rally, you wait for your squadmates to be "on" the Rally with you. Being "on" the Rally Point means you're dead and queued to spawn on the Rally, OR you're alive and within 10m of the Rally. Once a total of 7 squadmates are "on" the Rally (combined dead and alive), all dead players spawn in together. If the number of dead players that spawned in exceeds the number of alive players on the Rally, then the Rally disappears. Otherwise, it stays intact. Example 1: 6 men in your 9-man Squad are dead, but you have a Rally Point down. All of them queue to spawn at the Rally Point. A 7th man dies and gives up, then queues the Rally as well. A total of 7 squad members are now "on" the Rally, and they all spawn in at once. The Rally Point disappears. Example 2: Your squad is engaged in a firefight and 4 squad members die and queue to spawn on the Rally. If 3 of the remaining living squad members are able to retreat back to within 10m of the Rally, the combined 7 players "on" the rally (4 dead and 3 alive within 10m) will trigger a squad respawn. All dead players queuing the Rally will spawn at the same time. The Rally Point disappears. Example 3: Two new members have joined your squad, but you are far from all FOBs. Your SL throws down a Rally. If 5 living squadmates are near the Rally Point, the 2 new players can spawn there immediately. 5 living + 2 queuing spawn = 7. The Rally remains in place. (More living players are near the Rally than dead players trying to spawn in) Advantages: More incentive to stay alive. If you are the first to die, you must wait the longest to spawn. If you are one of the last to die, you probably don't need to wait very long. So this incentivizes players to stay alive as long as possible, at least until most of their squad has fallen. Respawn waits are not arbitrary. Respawning on a Rally Point is no longer dictated by an arbitrary timer, but instead depends on the actions or your teammates. Retreating is a good strategy. If you lose 4 squadmates, it might make sense to retreat to your Rally and get them back in the fight. A dead/retreating squad gives up ground. A pinned enemy squad will not be reinforced until they retreat or most of them die. They will be forced to go back to their Rally Point, giving your team an chance to move up. More teamwork and decision-making. Squad leaders will need to decide whether to order a retreat, and remaining living players must move together to the Rally to get their teammate back in the fight. Lone wolves will feel the wrath of their dead, waiting squadmates. Squads will stay together. Currently, when players respawn on Rally Points, they are alone, and the plan is "run back to where I was." But with this system, the majority of the squad always ends up together after a battle. Since the squad isn't scattered, Squad Leaders have the opportunity to try a different approach, rather than just running straight back in. Rally Points become more valuable. That is, you will want to hide your Rally in a good spot, far away from the action, since spawning is "all or nothing," and refreshing it is more difficult. Disadvantages: Small squads - what to do? 7 players for a squad respawn makes sense for a full 9-man squad, but obviously the formula will need to be scaled for smaller squads, making it more complex. Squad respawns without Squad Leader This would be very annoying, since the Squad Leader will have to respawn at a FOB, away from his squad. Automatic spawn trigger, good idea? Is it better to trigger the spawn automatically when 7 players are "on" the rally, or should it be triggered manually by the Squad Leader to ensure everyone who needs to respawn can do it? Let me know what you think, and how we could tackle the issues.
Clown_Tactical posted a topic in Feedback & SuggestionsI've noticed there is a problem in the game and it was also a problem in the original Project Reality. The difference was in Project Reality. You could commit suicide because it was a feature from the battlefield 2 game. Sometimes you want to commit suicide to return to the spawn screen. This is because it would save you time from travelling back to a location. For example, if you are a logistics' driver and your squad no longer needs the logi anymore. You drive the logi back to base and leave it there, now you want to rejoin your squad. The only options for you are to wait for a another vehicle to return back to the main base and hitch a ride, or the faster method, killing yourself and just respawning on your squad's rally point. Sometimes people don't want to return the logi back to base where it is safe, they will just abandon the logi after they construct a FOB. This is because driving back to the base and finding a means back to their squad is time consuming as I pointed out. And often, the logi ends up being destroyed or worst, captured by the enemy team. If the enemy is smart, they will realize that they can just camp your logi and kill anyone who tries to retrieve it, this will prevent your team from being able to build anymore FOBs. And often times, this forces the team who has no logi to lose the game. The de-spawning feature should only exist in main bases, if it was allowed anywhere else, it could be abused. The de-spawn feature could be a object that the player goes towards and presses the action key, much like pressing the action key at a ammo crate. The object could be a model of a large battle map or like the commander tent in Project Reality. When a player presses the action key, he disappears and returns back to the spawning screen. He can then spawn immediately. The reason why this should only be allowed at main bases is because if this feature was for example at FOBs. Players would de-spawn themselves and respawn in a gameplay abuse when under attack. Main bases should not be having engagements with the enemy. Players should be allowed to de-spawn themselves, there are already lots of experienced players committing suicide after returning a logi or APC as they did in Project Reality. This should be included because sometimes your squad changes their mind and decides they don't need the vehicle anymore they took from the main base. Players who are returning a vehicle asset back to the main base should not be punished with the long delay of getting back to the action or killing themselves.
What might be interesting spawn mode would be if (Only) a commander could set RP's around the map or even FOB's because the strategy of the commander would be somewhat enforced...SL's could recomend placements of these R Points and FOBs but its up to commander to decide where thay are put down and why. This way a commander position has value and SL will have less decisions to make about overall strategy of where and why to set RPs and FOBs. The SL could worry about his squad more and what they are doing rather than creating spawn worm holes. This is just an idea this thread started me thinking about. Of course a commander would have other abilities giving him insight to place the RPs and FOBs that SLs dont have such as drone recon of enemy movements or recon scout intelligence given to him partially incomplete so he doesnt have all enemy whereabouts but enough to get an idea of what enemy might be doing or planning based on movement covered by radar like in old BF or by squads on ground or computer telling him armor possible locations and aircraft spottings. Also commander could destroy and move the RPs and FOBs after every 5 minutes or some other time period set by server admin. Or he has to tell a squad to deconstruct a FOB with shovels. Something to be considered maybe as some mode to try out and tweak. :) I posted this on other thread but think it deserves its own. Do not know status of commander role, but if there is to be one shouldnt he have power to set RPs and FOB placements? To control strategy of battles for objectives?
Just a few thoughts, Enemies should not be allowed to be close enough to spawn camp main base. I typically cannot stand from prone into a crouch position, i have to sprint to get out of it, and it gets me killed behind walls. A lot of the walls are very difficult to climb over, even with full stamina at times. When one squad places a rally point directly on an FOB, there is no TAB mechanic to be able to select the FOB to spawn on if your in another squad. Instead you just are not able to spawn b/c the rally point overlay takes precedence and thinks you're trying to spawn on it. K thnx. Oh, and Vehicles plz!