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Real quick I know the Dev's have a road map for development already and I am not a game Dev so I don't know how hard the things I suggest would be to implement or if they are already underway and also just gotta say Dev's you guys are doing great on development so far So I played the weekend playtest of Post Scriptum and it made me realized how much I want Squad to be more slow paced and more punishing like PS and Project Reality. I have seen threads of people complaining about the recoil saying its too punishing in V11 and just complaining about things that make the game harder. As where I want the opposite I want the recoil to be even more punishing and etcetera. I don’t know the dev’s vision for the game but from the Squad Q&A from a while ago they seem to be riding the fence on making the core game harder. Or at least that how I saw it. Anyway why not just add a hardcore mode for players that want an experience more like PS/Project Reality. HARDCORE MODE SUGGESTIONS *Weapon Recoil* Changing the recoil so you physically have to adjust for the recoil like in PR. Its slows down the pace of the game a lot and can make for some really sweet prolonged fights. Also it keeps people from just blasting away instead of taking aimed shots. I have done it multiple times, standing up in a field just clicking the mouse as fast as I can and spraying guys down around 150m away post V11. Most of the gifs wont show on the page im not sure why https://imgur.com/jo9qIji https://i.imgur.com/1YElFTY.mp4 VS https://i.imgur.com/FAGgN64.mp4 https://i.imgur.com/okMHuZS.mp4 https://i.imgur.com/8RxS4eV.mp4 https://imgur.com/HEDCQNR Its still controllable and you can full auto sorta accurately its just not point and mash your mouse. *Bandaging* The bandaging should take longer in my option not just a 3 second animation and you're done. A game I think that dose this well is Rising Storm 2. https://imgur.com/a/PzbLuyd Also just like in PR if you get shot and bandage yourself it should heal you a bit and slow the bleeding but not stop the bleeding completely. For that you need to see a medic to completely stop the bleeding. That way lone wolfing is seriously punished and the squad sticking together is encouraged through game mechanics. Also it gives a very satisfying feeling knowing that if you shot a guy that he is forked up even if he got away. https://imgur.com/a/nKLsguC *Rally System* In Post Scriptum there is no rally's and I love it. It makes the people wait for the medic instead of just burning through the rally like paper. And people play like their lives matter because if you die you gotta run...far. But there is the spawn vehicles in Post Scriptum to balance that. So instead of a static rally that stays until a enemy finds it or the spawns are used up just copy the system in PR. You can put down a rally but as soon as the SL moves 100m away from the rally it disappears. So people don't rely on it like a FOB but you can keep the squad together. Maybe add a timer on it as well so people don't expect the SL to just sit on the rally. *Damage* Having to shoot people 3 times twists my panties. So in this said hardcore mode upping the damage people take would be nice. Also because of Post Scriptum I am quite fond of the head shots being non relivable. For me it was enjoyable part of the gameplay. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SUGGESTIONS FOR THE BASE GAME *Dedicated Armored Vehicle Squads* Squad NEEDS premade dedicated vehicle squads just like in Post Scriptum. I play squad leader a lot, and when my squad needs a pickup or backup and I talk to the other SL's to ask for a ride or for some support from armor they them self's the SL's are not in the armor and its some guy lone wolfing it in their squad and we never get the support because I cant communicate directly with the crew. Same thing goes for when I make an apc squad and another squad has an apc and we try to coordinate. Its almost impossible because if its a infantry squad with armor usually the SL of that squad is not in the vehicle. ANNNNDDD another thing I noticed is that people are scared to take out the APC's or because the inf squads are busy doing infantry things and don't use them. So a lot of the matches we just have 3 APC's sitting at main the whole game. But in Post Scriptum its night and day compared to Squad in this aspect. I can talk directly to a squad dedicated to tanks and give them information that helps win the game and support infantry. Also warn them of enemy armor instead of having to play a game of telephone then watching are BTR get bent over by a Bradley because they couldn't hear me. Another thing about armor squads is that its really hard to hear your crew. So If you get in apc, tank or whatever it should automatically deafen the engine and the sound out side. Kinda like if you had a tanker helmet on. Also if you model the helmets for the crewmen kit that would be really noice. *CROUCHING SYSTEM* If you have played ARMA 3 or Escape From Tarkov you know they have a crouching system in which you can choose how low you want to be to the ground. So you can shoot through holes that you usually cant. Or just peak above cover enough to shoot without standing completely up and getting murderized *FOBS AND SHOVELS* Personally I hate that one lone wolf with any kit can find a FOB and single-handedly destroy it with a shovel. I think you should need a special class with C4 or some type of explosive to destroy the FOB. I remember seeing a shotgun that was being modeled a long time ago is the breacher kit making a comeback from PR? gimme gimme gimme *AFK kicking System* People in servers just chilling for 30 mins and that have not spawned from the start of the game or joined a squad should be kicked. That is all my good Sir's keep up the good work Dev's! Oh and PS. Can the American Army get a woodland camo? Or is that what the Army actually wears in the woods? They are like beacons of light compared with the Russian camo on forest maps.
In my opinion, currently semi fire mode is way more powerful compared to auto fire mode except for indoor distance, thus making suppression fire useless. Here I will make an illustration using the basic red dot M4. 1. Current status: Semi: When crunching, due to the auto-recovery from recoil, rapid semi firing will yield consistant hits on man-sized target 200ms+ like laser, therefore you can reliably dispatch multiple stationary enemies at that range. Auto: Due to increased recoil both vertically and horizontally and the absence of auto-recovery, even a three round burst could yield missed shots on target 20ms away. Trying to "suppress" someone with automatic firing is completely out of the question. Result: It is literally as simple to kill a 10ms target as to kill a 200ms target, providing that it stands still. Guns like red dot M249 is useless engaging someone behind cover due to the lack of accurate semi mode. 2. Proposed changes: Semi: Slow down the auto-recovery from recoil, add horizontal displacement (currently there is vertical displacement for basic red dot M4) of the center to encourage minor aiming adjustment for long range engagement and increase random spread over long range (currently the red dot sight is way too precise, IRL it will be inherently inaccurate over 100ms due to its design, changing it will make optic M4er equally desirable compared to anti-tank soldier and grenadier) so that it takes longer to kill a distant target. Auto: Reduce the recoil of regular M4 to that of M203/Grip M4, and add auto-recovery so that burst shots can be effective at 50ms, especially against target in cover. This will in addition make suppression firing and the guns specilized in it more uesful. Result: Improved gun play experience, now against target in cover, auto mode is actually deadly and semi mode kill speed is toned down, so that better positioning yourself to flank the enemies would be more tactically advantagous than just keeping tapping left mouse button.
AKM is my favorite weapon, but also I like to play the role of squadleader make more various Squadleader kit or change ar74 to AKM pls ______________________________________________________________________________ Also please reduce recoil of AKM During the lying, it is really too strongly
M249's recoil is too strong, feels like you keep in hand flaming potato but not machine-gun. due to recoil machinegunner is the most useless kit in game, even if shoot lying. I dont know why you continue to make strange decisions, may be you have not reference videos or you made it for balance, in both cases it don't makes game better.
So if you fire a single shot in semi-auto and full-auto mode respectively, the semi-auto one would quickly recover from the recoil and have the reticle back on target instantly, the full-auto one would have the reticle reset above so you will have to re-aim manually. It makes no sense!
First of all I should explain the name of this topic. As we all know, crowdfunding system has a big influence on development process. A long time ago devs presented first iteration of this game for Kickstarter. It offered to player a big wasteland, a couple of guns and a lot of fun. After more than year of development devs have all gameplay systement at overhaul stage, cause they needed at least the most primitive prototypes of everything this game will have in future. Let be honest, nobody want to buy promises, OWI understand it, that is why even Pre-Alpha was a really entertaining and fun to play. Today, when OWI had a solid core of devteam, decent auditory and money, they can breath free and start to make Squad the way they really want it to look and feel. Animation system overhaul? Check. Deployment system overhaul? Check. UI overhaul? Check. Vehicles? Check. Did we forgot something, something valuable for shooter? I think yes, we forget about actually shooting. Experience of some members of OWI let them make firefights as they should really be. Single fire, covers, effective distances, crouching and prone, all these aspects exist, devs have reached their goal. But they did it the same way, they simulate movement of human. Is human possible to get over the thigh-high fence? Yes, it is possible in reality, it is possible in game as well. But nobody like the idea that you actually should jump over this fence, for months people were asking for vaulting, collisions and other things, nobody was really surprised when devs started to talk about animation overhaul. The goal has been reached already, players can run, get over obstacles, crouch etc, but nobody likes how this goal was reached. You don't need to hire advisors to reach out how to vault and walk As I said, realistic combat experience was almost reached too. But like other systems, for this moment we can see, how poor look these methods, which were used to reach this goal. It is normal for me to think that current shooting system is placeholder too, like animation and deployments, but it is not so obvious for average players, who are not as experienced as devs or not the biggest, but still major part of community. But I'm worried, cause devs are going to tune and balance this primitive system and haven't mentioned this system will have to be reworked. I'm sure that shooting is the most critical part of every shooter, doesn't matter what this shooter promote, teamwork or deathmatches with railgun. Squad promotes realistic combat experience, not simulates it, but current mechanics is too clunky and unattractive even for arcade shooter. Honestly, it is unrealistic like BF/CoD and uncomfortable like Arma in the same time. Some people say current system is challenging and still playable, say that people who complains about it just don't want to learn. It is not true, I can shoot accurately, kill people and have k/d more than 1, although I mostly play as Medic and heal and revive people 90% of my time. I do it not because I like to play as Medic or nobody else want to play as Medic. I just want to play this game, but I absolutely dislike to shoot in this game. That is why I made this suggestion. I love this game, love almost all aspects of Squad and I trust devs. But shooting system totally pisses me off. I'm not a programmer, but I think that information collected by myself and other people could be useful and may fin its place in the game core. I copied the main part of suggestion from another topic not to annoy people, but cause it is me who should show the suggestion to devs, not the devs should lurk for it on forums. I tried to wrote it as clearly as possible and I hope I will get clear and deep answers. Thanks. DISCLAIMER: Guys, please, stop repeating devs statements. We all agree that firefights in Squad should be slow paced like in reality with range of effective fire decreased due to map scale and poor monitor resolutions. Most of you are not even try to read what people suggest, you already have answers like "it is not milsim" and "gameplay over realism". Please, stop, this type of answers is worthless. We all know we play the game. But we don't want this game to be as clunky, weird and uncomfortable as milsim. We want more convinient, more smooth shooting mechanics, considering many factors which can affect effectiveness of shooting. If you think that overblown recoil and sway are the best and most accurate mechanics - sorry, it is your problem. In that case, please, stop to prevent us from suggesting these things, because you just don't understand what we are talking about. I think devs choose the wrong way to reach right goal, current solution looks too primitive, although, it may be well tuned and balanced. I know, that current devs solution may be placeholder, cause a lot of other mechanics which can affect shooting are not implemented yet. About behaviour of firearms Lets start with accuracy, because it is the main reason why people misunderstand each other when talking about weapon mechanics. Ability to hit the target consists of two aspects, accuracy of shooter and inherent accuracy (thanks @trotskygrad). The main difference between PR and Squad is that in PR so called deviation is simulating exactly grouping, this cone of spreading starts from the muzzle (center of camera actually). Of course, you can control the angle the of cone by changing stance, ADS and other measures, but projectile trajectory staying unpredictable within this cone. Squad mechanics are far more advanced, deviation for firearms was removed (Squad is not benchrest), instead of exaggerated grouping we have sway, which is supposed to simulate player's bahaviour, while technical parameters of gun stand unchanged. As I said, it is the big step to the directory of realistic representation of shooting. This parameter is the back end of the shooting and not the main question of this discussion. Next things affecting weapon handling are gun operation and construction. In our case (AR-15 and AK), it consists of two major aspects: a) angle and difference between axis of recoil impulse and stock, b) impulse of moving parts (light bolt carrier group of AR-15 and heavy bolt carrier group with piston stock of AK). AK-74 without muzzle has significantly higher recoil than AR-15 without muzzle. This aspect could be represented by these "curves" of recoil patterns, mentioned by Sgt.Ross. Please, notice, I am talking about single fire, but even in full auto higher rate of fire of AR-15 doesn't make it much less controlable then AK-74. Additionally, we should not forget about returning of the bolt carrier group, which has its own impulse that drags your gun forward. "Reset" of muzzle caused by overcompensating impulse of the body, because it is impossible for our reflexes to set perfect time and force values to compensate every force put to us. About weapon handling And finally, it is time to talk about the most unreliable, most unstable component of shooting mechanism: about shooter. Devs already have focused on it, they added sway instead of deviation, making accuracy more dependable on shooter. Unfortunately, it is the only one parameter which was radically changed, other aspects were replaced with exaggerated recoil due to the next goals: slower firefights and decreased distances of engagement. How recoil is connected with speed of gameplay? Higher recoil takes more time to return barrel on its place, on bigger distances player additionaly may lose small target, because it can be overlayed by parts of gun model. It becomes even worse due to hard-lock of system head+gun. While ADS our camera literally sticks on stock because of cheek welding. It is not really accurate, usually when you are shooting, movement of the sights doesn't really affect the position of your head. In Squad camera is moving with gun and that is another reason why Squad shooting feels and looks clunky. Now about recoil and muzzle rise or muzzle flip (thanks @VarenykySupreme). Yeah, some guys mentioned that to control recoil in Squad you need to drag gun down, like you are doing it in real life. Yeah, you actually doing that, but YOU DON'T COMPENSATE the main impulse of recoil! You compensate main impulse with your body, cause gun forces you to move back, not up. It looks like you need to compensate vertical impulse, because lower part of your body is fixed on the ground and recoil impulse is coming perpendicular to your upper part of body. You need to compensate recoil not by dragging gun down, but forming a fixed stance and leaning forward. It as another aspect Squad is ignoring: you always have a right stance. Of course, there is penalty while you changing position, but it doesn't cover all situations. I'll write about it later. What does your weak hand do? While shooting It compensates the torque of your body, caused by difference between point where recoil vector is put to and mass centre of your body. Next aspect: focus. Yeah, it is all right about breathing, heartbeating and imitation of real "focusing". But in Squad you have unlimited focus. Why? Because the best moment to shoot is the time during 3-5 seconds after you have calmed your hands and gun. The gun is heavy, every next second make it harder and harder to keep aim, hands starting to tremble. You just can't stand for 10 seconds, then "focusing" for 5 seconds, then wait until focus will be regenerated and focus again. You just can't hold a 3-4 kilos rifle and hit targets with the same accuracy for minutes. And after every shoot you need to put force to compensate recoil, so it is additional consumption of your "handling" stamina. Current sway is like tides, predictable and smooth, it is not hard to shoot with it, but it looks and acts unrealistically. About hip fire. There is BIG DIFFERENCE between hip fire and non-ADS. Just look in game, what do you do when you press RMB? Your camera lean to the stock. You already handle the gun ready for shooting, you just don't look through the sights. That means you can't aim propery, and this is the only major difference between ADS and non-ADS. Yes, as MotherDear mentioned, there may be some recoil penalty, because your non-ADS stance is more relaxed as when ADS (current animations don't show it), but that penalty is nothing compared to inability to control the direction of your barrel. ADZ will provide it. There is no hip fire in game, because player ALWAYS keep rifle in pre-shooting position while standing. The next problem I think can't be resolved so easily until new animation system will be implemented. It is about player's body position while shooting. The point is that you can't make 360 and shoot with the same accuracy, but not only while you are actually turning. Even if you stop turn your torso without changing position of your feet, your spine is still curved and you can't compensate recoil with full effectiveness. You need to change your stance even if you haven't totally turned around to keep the decent level of accuracy. Horizontal recoil. Yes, it can be compensated by muzzle brakes, but it is still exists, because of different positions of hands, impulse of rotating bolt and other. All these things affects shooter's ability to shoot fast and accurately enough to hit the targets on the distances above 100 meters, like the devs want it to be played. What I suggest: 1) Reduce sway, recoil and make it closer to the real values 2) Tie camera position off sights while shooting and desyncronize patterns of sway for gun and head. Second one could be really low and almost hidde, but it will compensate the reducing oof whole recoil. 3) Add progressive sway/tremor while ADS which is slightly increasing after every shoot. It will slow the temp of firefight and will encourage people to change stance to prone or crouch. 4) Change the pattern of sway. Reduce sway, but add micro tremor to make it more unpredictable, but still effective for engagements up to 150 meters, progressing of tremor will prevent player from standing shooting on long distances (see 3) 5) Add slight recoil penalty for turning on wide angles, when new animation will be implemented and player will be able to turn his torso withough changing position of feet. It will prevent players from fast 360 shooting. Or add non-cosmetic misalignment and hard cap on turn rate. 6) Add Aim Dead Zone. It is the most vital part of shooting, it will prevent non-ADS shooting even more effective than 2x recoil, it will help to make sway while ADS and will work perfectly with 5. 7) Add little horizontal recoil. It will help to prevent people going full-auto on long distances. Why do I suggest it? Because shooting is the MAIN mechanics of this game, it is the main way for player to interact with game world, because Squad is shooter first. It will help to keep the combat on the level devs desired it to be, but will make shooting more smooth, realistic and skill depended. Comments and feedback appreciated, want to hear opinion of experienced shooters and, hopefully, devs. I'm not sure I listed all of the things which can help, feel free to add your opinion and experience to my suggestion. UPD: Added feedback from comments.
Hi guys, another question... i saw a video from this guy "Born .45" on YT ... he made about 4-5 SQUAD videos .. i think it was between August and October ... and what i saw (i think there is also a another topic of that where a other member of this forum posted 1 video about him) .. i this video it seems like his hip firing is way more accurate than today and also the ADS recoil is lower... and he has some effect on his videos where he maybe 2-3x the effect of the aim focus (i dunno if this is post edited or some sort of makro where i presses a button to set the FOV from 90 to 80 or something like that) .. could that be the case or is it the same values than today? because if this hasn't changed than i am very confused and i have to doubt my skills... which i thought they were at least acceptable i hope this doesn't sound like a dummy thank you for the response
Based off my title, my question is how you'll maintain accuracy with foreign forces. I'm narrow minded in this, since I'm not aware of all your military advisors; but, I don't think Ross has any experience in the modern Russian army (unless Ross checks the box on badass Nato-Servant US Marine). And generalizations are great, but there has to be some truth if you're going to add in some distinctions with medical kits, clothing, and etc. In all of this, my personal beef is on misconceptions of weapons and weapons handling in the Russian Army. And this topic is what I based my question on : Though the source/sauce doesnt specifically target Russian weapons handling, it can be connected to the ammunition types (7.62x51 mm) used by the weapon models, AN-94 and AK-12. And it brings up an issue on high recoil which is sometimes misunderstood. Small cracks like this are huge since in reality there's low recoil on the actual weapons. And low recoil means more distance in engagements and less necessity for team-oriented tactics like suppression (huge recoil makes this more viable). [see sauces below] With the realistic recoil on both the current AK-74 and M4 models, you're well known for your accuracy. But how far will this accuracy go? Will it go through only personal experience and bias, through advisors, the community? It seems like a waste of time, and in my view it looks resourceful if you choose to have free reign and disregard accuracy. But that puts it at the expense of community support. 'Swell, a topic on the recoil of the RPG-7 covered over similar points. But it was discarded as unnecessary by the community. Sorry for wordy-ness but in my closing question/interrogation. How far does accuracy (NOT REALISM) go in affecting gameplay? *Edit* I find accuracy different from realism. (I don't want people to think I'd go all ham on the medical system, explosives, geneva, and crap like that.)
I have seen in a current gameplay video that the RPG-7 seems to have a slight but still very noticeable recoil: https://youtu.be/Hrd10BFQtR8?t=7829 I was wondering if this is planned to stay in game, as the RPG is supposed not to have any noticeable recoil (from Wikipedia: "The RPG-7 has no noticeable recoil, the only effect during firing being that of the sudden lightness of the launcher as the rocket leaves the tube.") This can be corroborated just by watching any youtube video of current conflicts (Middle East, or even Ukraine) where soldiers fire RPGs. (Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VggStfML_2o) I hope this will be fixed soon. Thanks for your attention.