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      Forum Rules   07/06/2016

      Introduction   The Squad Team reserves the right to edit, update, add and remove rules at any time. Applicable rules extend to the PM system. Your PMs are private, but the Squad Team may be informed about unacceptable PM content by the receiving party.   Section I: Posting Rules   §1 Show Respect This community can only work if we all respect each other. To that end, it is imperative that any time you engage with another user, either directly or indirectly, you show them respect with the content of your post. In particular refrain from flaming, insulting, abusing, taunting, racism, and other similar types of actions towards other forum users.   §2 Attitude & Behavior Poor attitude and behavior are the most common ways a negative / unsafe environment is created and perpetuated. As such that kind of behavior will not be allowed on these forums. Please be mindful of this rule when posting personal positions and opinions regarding topics which could be considered contentious in nature. As a rule of thumb, keep your posts civil in nature, and refrain from making posts that are likely to incite arguments and create a negative environment. As a privately hosted web forum we reserve the right to maintain an environment that we are happy the majority of our players are comfortable with.   §3 Swearing While we will not strictly moderate every little swear that occurs, please try to avoid excessive bad language. The moderation reserves the right to remove rants and unsuitable content at any time.   §4 Illegal Topics
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      As per §1 and §2, keep in mind to be respectful and reasonable, not only towards all users of the forum, but also towards the Squad Team and towards any ideas and content and the game itself. Criticism is welcome, but if it is not constructive and/or if it is offensive, the Moderation may need to step in. Please refrain from posting if you are upset, angry or drunk, or you may be punished for things you wouldn’t have otherwise written, which is not in anyone's interest.   §6 Language & Legibility
      Please post only in English. Non-English content (including non-legible content) may be removed. If you see someone posting in another language because s/he apparently does not speak English, please report their post - if you can, you may reply in their language to explain their question, but please do translate their and your message so it can be reviewed by the Moderation. ‘Hiding’ insults in non-English posts will be punished harshly. Posts written largely in ‘leetspeak’ or full of spelling / grammatical errors may be treated like non-English content. This rule does not extend to PMs.   §7 Forum structure & Search
      Please ensure when posting a new thread, that the thread is located inside the correct forum section. Check all forum section titles to judge where your thread should belong. Threads created in the wrong forum section will be moved or deleted.
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      Please ensure that your post is not in all CAPITALS, as this is not allowed. Any threads posted in all caps will subsequently be removed from the forum. Repeated offenses may lead to infractions against your account. This practice is not approved or accepted here. 
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      Do not include more than ~1 large image per paragraph of text, unless in image collection / announcement threads. Link to further images.
      Consider posting thumbnails. You may post a few more images per post if they are reasonably small, the details are for the Moderation to judge.   §11 The use of BBCode
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      There is a Post Report system in place. If you notice a post that violates forum rules, simply use the exclamation mark icon below the users avatar image to send a report to the Moderation. We will then review this post. Your report will not be made public and cannot be linked to your person by anyone outside of the Squad Team. You will not be punished for using the Report system even if the report was false, unless you repeatedly abuse the system to spam it.
      Do not ‘report’ posts by replying directly in public to them. In case of spambots, this prompts them to respond in turn, spamming the forum further. This also fuels flame wars and arguments.   §2 Reporting Moderators
      Moderators are subject to the same forum rules (and some additional rules / exceptions). If you think that a Moderator has treated you unfairly or is otherwise breaking forum rules, please PM the Lead Moderator or any Administrator. Do not accuse Moderators in public, the Squad Team will treat every complaint seriously and it is in our interest to discipline or remove Moderators who are known to break forum rules.   §3 Respect Squad Team members and Moderators
      Do not ignore or argue against Admin, Moderator or Dev instructions on the forum. If you have a complaint, as per §2, please inform the Team in private. You are expected to follow orders given by the Moderation, Administration and Development Team, and it is necessary for smooth running of the forum to respect their decisions. Being stubborn or ignoring warnings will lead to harsher punishments - however, we do not tolerate Moderator / Admin abuse of power / privileges, so do not hesitate to inform other Team members if you feel treated unfairly.   §4 Bans and multiple accounts
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  1. First of all I should explain the name of this topic. As we all know, crowdfunding system has a big influence on development process. A long time ago devs presented first iteration of this game for Kickstarter. It offered to player a big wasteland, a couple of guns and a lot of fun. After more than year of development devs have all gameplay systement at overhaul stage, cause they needed at least the most primitive prototypes of everything this game will have in future. Let be honest, nobody want to buy promises, OWI understand it, that is why even Pre-Alpha was a really entertaining and fun to play. Today, when OWI had a solid core of devteam, decent auditory and money, they can breath free and start to make Squad the way they really want it to look and feel. Animation system overhaul? Check. Deployment system overhaul? Check. UI overhaul? Check. Vehicles? Check. Did we forgot something, something valuable for shooter? I think yes, we forget about actually shooting. Experience of some members of OWI let them make firefights as they should really be. Single fire, covers, effective distances, crouching and prone, all these aspects exist, devs have reached their goal. But they did it the same way, they simulate movement of human. Is human possible to get over the thigh-high fence? Yes, it is possible in reality, it is possible in game as well. But nobody like the idea that you actually should jump over this fence, for months people were asking for vaulting, collisions and other things, nobody was really surprised when devs started to talk about animation overhaul. The goal has been reached already, players can run, get over obstacles, crouch etc, but nobody likes how this goal was reached. You don't need to hire advisors to reach out how to vault and walk As I said, realistic combat experience was almost reached too. But like other systems, for this moment we can see, how poor look these methods, which were used to reach this goal. It is normal for me to think that current shooting system is placeholder too, like animation and deployments, but it is not so obvious for average players, who are not as experienced as devs or not the biggest, but still major part of community. But I'm worried, cause devs are going to tune and balance this primitive system and haven't mentioned this system will have to be reworked. I'm sure that shooting is the most critical part of every shooter, doesn't matter what this shooter promote, teamwork or deathmatches with railgun. Squad promotes realistic combat experience, not simulates it, but current mechanics is too clunky and unattractive even for arcade shooter. Honestly, it is unrealistic like BF/CoD and uncomfortable like Arma in the same time. Some people say current system is challenging and still playable, say that people who complains about it just don't want to learn. It is not true, I can shoot accurately, kill people and have k/d more than 1, although I mostly play as Medic and heal and revive people 90% of my time. I do it not because I like to play as Medic or nobody else want to play as Medic. I just want to play this game, but I absolutely dislike to shoot in this game. That is why I made this suggestion. I love this game, love almost all aspects of Squad and I trust devs. But shooting system totally pisses me off. I'm not a programmer, but I think that information collected by myself and other people could be useful and may fin its place in the game core. I copied the main part of suggestion from another topic not to annoy people, but cause it is me who should show the suggestion to devs, not the devs should lurk for it on forums. I tried to wrote it as clearly as possible and I hope I will get clear and deep answers. Thanks. DISCLAIMER: Guys, please, stop repeating devs statements. We all agree that firefights in Squad should be slow paced like in reality with range of effective fire decreased due to map scale and poor monitor resolutions. Most of you are not even try to read what people suggest, you already have answers like "it is not milsim" and "gameplay over realism". Please, stop, this type of answers is worthless. We all know we play the game. But we don't want this game to be as clunky, weird and uncomfortable as milsim. We want more convinient, more smooth shooting mechanics, considering many factors which can affect effectiveness of shooting. If you think that overblown recoil and sway are the best and most accurate mechanics - sorry, it is your problem. In that case, please, stop to prevent us from suggesting these things, because you just don't understand what we are talking about. I think devs choose the wrong way to reach right goal, current solution looks too primitive, although, it may be well tuned and balanced. I know, that current devs solution may be placeholder, cause a lot of other mechanics which can affect shooting are not implemented yet. About behaviour of firearms Lets start with accuracy, because it is the main reason why people misunderstand each other when talking about weapon mechanics. Ability to hit the target consists of two aspects, accuracy of shooter and inherent accuracy (thanks @trotskygrad). The main difference between PR and Squad is that in PR so called deviation is simulating exactly grouping, this cone of spreading starts from the muzzle (center of camera actually). Of course, you can control the angle the of cone by changing stance, ADS and other measures, but projectile trajectory staying unpredictable within this cone. Squad mechanics are far more advanced, deviation for firearms was removed (Squad is not benchrest), instead of exaggerated grouping we have sway, which is supposed to simulate player's bahaviour, while technical parameters of gun stand unchanged. As I said, it is the big step to the directory of realistic representation of shooting. This parameter is the back end of the shooting and not the main question of this discussion. Next things affecting weapon handling are gun operation and construction. In our case (AR-15 and AK), it consists of two major aspects: a) angle and difference between axis of recoil impulse and stock, b) impulse of moving parts (light bolt carrier group of AR-15 and heavy bolt carrier group with piston stock of AK). AK-74 without muzzle has significantly higher recoil than AR-15 without muzzle. This aspect could be represented by these "curves" of recoil patterns, mentioned by Sgt.Ross. Please, notice, I am talking about single fire, but even in full auto higher rate of fire of AR-15 doesn't make it much less controlable then AK-74. Additionally, we should not forget about returning of the bolt carrier group, which has its own impulse that drags your gun forward. "Reset" of muzzle caused by overcompensating impulse of the body, because it is impossible for our reflexes to set perfect time and force values to compensate every force put to us. About weapon handling And finally, it is time to talk about the most unreliable, most unstable component of shooting mechanism: about shooter. Devs already have focused on it, they added sway instead of deviation, making accuracy more dependable on shooter. Unfortunately, it is the only one parameter which was radically changed, other aspects were replaced with exaggerated recoil due to the next goals: slower firefights and decreased distances of engagement. How recoil is connected with speed of gameplay? Higher recoil takes more time to return barrel on its place, on bigger distances player additionaly may lose small target, because it can be overlayed by parts of gun model. It becomes even worse due to hard-lock of system head+gun. While ADS our camera literally sticks on stock because of cheek welding. It is not really accurate, usually when you are shooting, movement of the sights doesn't really affect the position of your head. In Squad camera is moving with gun and that is another reason why Squad shooting feels and looks clunky. Now about recoil and muzzle rise or muzzle flip (thanks @VarenykySupreme). Yeah, some guys mentioned that to control recoil in Squad you need to drag gun down, like you are doing it in real life. Yeah, you actually doing that, but YOU DON'T COMPENSATE the main impulse of recoil! You compensate main impulse with your body, cause gun forces you to move back, not up. It looks like you need to compensate vertical impulse, because lower part of your body is fixed on the ground and recoil impulse is coming perpendicular to your upper part of body. You need to compensate recoil not by dragging gun down, but forming a fixed stance and leaning forward. It as another aspect Squad is ignoring: you always have a right stance. Of course, there is penalty while you changing position, but it doesn't cover all situations. I'll write about it later. What does your weak hand do? While shooting It compensates the torque of your body, caused by difference between point where recoil vector is put to and mass centre of your body. Next aspect: focus. Yeah, it is all right about breathing, heartbeating and imitation of real "focusing". But in Squad you have unlimited focus. Why? Because the best moment to shoot is the time during 3-5 seconds after you have calmed your hands and gun. The gun is heavy, every next second make it harder and harder to keep aim, hands starting to tremble. You just can't stand for 10 seconds, then "focusing" for 5 seconds, then wait until focus will be regenerated and focus again. You just can't hold a 3-4 kilos rifle and hit targets with the same accuracy for minutes. And after every shoot you need to put force to compensate recoil, so it is additional consumption of your "handling" stamina. Current sway is like tides, predictable and smooth, it is not hard to shoot with it, but it looks and acts unrealistically. About hip fire. There is BIG DIFFERENCE between hip fire and non-ADS. Just look in game, what do you do when you press RMB? Your camera lean to the stock. You already handle the gun ready for shooting, you just don't look through the sights. That means you can't aim propery, and this is the only major difference between ADS and non-ADS. Yes, as MotherDear mentioned, there may be some recoil penalty, because your non-ADS stance is more relaxed as when ADS (current animations don't show it), but that penalty is nothing compared to inability to control the direction of your barrel. ADZ will provide it. There is no hip fire in game, because player ALWAYS keep rifle in pre-shooting position while standing. The next problem I think can't be resolved so easily until new animation system will be implemented. It is about player's body position while shooting. The point is that you can't make 360 and shoot with the same accuracy, but not only while you are actually turning. Even if you stop turn your torso without changing position of your feet, your spine is still curved and you can't compensate recoil with full effectiveness. You need to change your stance even if you haven't totally turned around to keep the decent level of accuracy. Horizontal recoil. Yes, it can be compensated by muzzle brakes, but it is still exists, because of different positions of hands, impulse of rotating bolt and other. All these things affects shooter's ability to shoot fast and accurately enough to hit the targets on the distances above 100 meters, like the devs want it to be played. What I suggest: 1) Reduce sway, recoil and make it closer to the real values 2) Tie camera position off sights while shooting and desyncronize patterns of sway for gun and head. Second one could be really low and almost hidde, but it will compensate the reducing oof whole recoil. 3) Add progressive sway/tremor while ADS which is slightly increasing after every shoot. It will slow the temp of firefight and will encourage people to change stance to prone or crouch. 4) Change the pattern of sway. Reduce sway, but add micro tremor to make it more unpredictable, but still effective for engagements up to 150 meters, progressing of tremor will prevent player from standing shooting on long distances (see 3) 5) Add slight recoil penalty for turning on wide angles, when new animation will be implemented and player will be able to turn his torso withough changing position of feet. It will prevent players from fast 360 shooting. Or add non-cosmetic misalignment and hard cap on turn rate. 6) Add Aim Dead Zone. It is the most vital part of shooting, it will prevent non-ADS shooting even more effective than 2x recoil, it will help to make sway while ADS and will work perfectly with 5. 7) Add little horizontal recoil. It will help to prevent people going full-auto on long distances. Why do I suggest it? Because shooting is the MAIN mechanics of this game, it is the main way for player to interact with game world, because Squad is shooter first. It will help to keep the combat on the level devs desired it to be, but will make shooting more smooth, realistic and skill depended. Comments and feedback appreciated, want to hear opinion of experienced shooters and, hopefully, devs. I'm not sure I listed all of the things which can help, feel free to add your opinion and experience to my suggestion. UPD: Added feedback from comments.