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Showing results for tags 'accuracy'.
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Heya Squaddies. So I have been wondering lately, does anyone else feel like the game (despite v10 update changes) is still too arcady when it comes to movement and shooting? Despite this game being one of the leaders of the tactical realism military genre. You can get rather easily "sniped" by a BTR sitting 500 meters away, often leading to "BTR Squads" just going lone wolf to get easy kills. I feel as if accuracy is still too precise on longer ranges, the only ones being able to do some proper killing from these ranges should be skilled marksmen, not some armor squad sitting too far away for anyone to deal with them. I would imagine that matches would be way more immersive if you would barely be able to hit anything at that range, and basically just do suppression, forcing you to move with other infantry squads. Same with 50.cal bunkers, although they are rather easy to take care of, they can snipe you from across the map (kohat toi as an example) with good accuracy. Where's the immersion in that? If there was a greater "randomness" to aiming anywhere further than 250m I think teams would move better together, work better together, you wouldn't die easily and frustratingly (like when running somewhere with your squad, and a BTR sitting hundreds of meters away sprays half of you down), squads wouldn't go lone-wolf as a BTR for easy kills, etc. Let the snipers and mortars take care of long-range threats. Firefights would be longer and more immersive. Just some thoughts of mine, anyone agree/disagree? feel free to start the discussion.
TLDR: Go to heading d and read from there. This topic has been discussed many a time in various different threads and on the discord, but as of yet no complete guide has been made. INTRO The core of the issue: "accuracy" in games is apparently a difficult thing to do right. Case A) BF2/PR: Random cone of spread. Universally hated because it makes no sense and leaves no room for skill of the shooter. Case B) Arma: Horrendous weapon sway, akin to everyone having Parkinson's. Achieved the intended result, but was badly immersion breaking. Case C) Squad: A realistic amount of sway, but with no other method of reigning in very high standards of accuracy. "Rifles are lazerbeams" The point of this thread is to outline a way in which the problem of weapon accuracy should be put to bed, once and for all. The fact of the matter is that being a good shot in real life is genuinely difficult -- the is a reason that sharpshooters/snipers are respected in the military. That being said, the skills are easy to learn, just difficult to master. Players of Squad are used to a highly unrealistic standard of accuracy and effect on target. I will take you through the principles of marksmanship, and show how they may be easily coded into Squad to achieve what no other game has bothered to do to date. TWO things to remember: The weapon will not always fire at the Point Of Aim (POA); and the POA will not always be where the foresight is. I will address the last principle first as it is the most important. a. The shot must be released and followed through without undue disturbance to the position Weapons do not release rounds instantaneously. There is a brief moment where the round is still travelling down the barrel, and where any movement or adjustment will shift the Point Of Impact (POI). This has knock-on effects for principles b and c. Now the interesting bit -- effects on gameplay: 1) The movement of a rifle, scanning left to right very quickly, to release a shot will carry the bullet farther to the right than the POA suggested, even if the sight alignment is correct. 2) "Snatching the trigger" is when the shot is released and the trigger finger either moved the POA before firing, or is immediately pulled off the trigger as the round is still leaving the barrel. This causes micro-disturbances in the hold of the rifle, leading to a larger spread as the POA changes as round is fired. This can easily be worked into the game -- if on semi automatic, a press and hold of the LMB will carry the shot more true to the POA. This has the effect of slowing down the ROF and making marksmanship less "spammy" and more deliberate. Another possibility is an entirely different mechanic: The releasing of LMB causes the POA of the rifle to quickly pull to one side very slightly. While this is not true to the disruption of the first round as in real life, it would still cause a slowdown in the accurate ROF for following rounds. b. The Position and hold must be firm enough to support the weapon. This one is a doozy. Self explanatory -- hold the weapon tight into the shoulder, no jankily resting on a vest or webbing where it may slip. The right hand does all the work in securing the weapon. Effects on gameplay: 1) When snapshooting (weapon at the rest, then immediately brought up and fired) -- the movement of sights and their alignment due to recoil will be greater than normal as the weapon has not been perfectly shouldered. Appears as "greater recoil" to the shooter, although the force of recoil impulse is the same as always. 2) When firing above a rapid rate of fire (faster than 1 round every 2 seconds) greater movement of the sight alignment (as above) as the weapon moves with less control in the shoulder. 3) With the advent of v10, weapons will be brought to rest when not actively used in the last few seconds. Great. Muscle fatigue is a genuine aspect of shooting, and good groupings (particularly in a standing or unsupported position) require most shooters to lower the weapon to rest after each shot (usually in non combat situations of course). The greater the time the rifle has been spent at the ready and raised, the more recoil impulse will be felt as the hold is under less control. (for all of the above, the same concept as in principle a applies: here, shots will not be going on target, and most likely will be randomly dispersed around the POA.) c. The weapon must point naturally at the target without any undue physical effort. Again, simple. If your body position is not naturally pointing at the target (you are tensing up on one side in order to bring the rifle on) then there will be two major effects: 1) As you breathe, you will see the POA shift in diagonals because your chest is expanding and contracting in the X and Y axis at the same time. Good positioning will yield breathing effects that are entirely vertical only (especially in the prone). In this respect, more "random walk" POA shifts are only seen when standing unsupported or in wind, and accuracy actually gets a little easier than now where we have more random and unnatural movements in the POA in more positions. 2) If the position is twisted or the body tense on one side, the recoil impulse will be asymmetrical and the grouping will be consistently off to one side, as in principle a. The interesting thing with this is that the animation leeks for v10 show a twisting of the torso and a delayed following of the legs for more natural behaviour. When holding a twisted position for more than a brief moment, the legs realign... but during that brief moment, the above effect would be felt. This can be seen in the fist seconds of this video. d. Sight alignment and the sight picture must be correct. Ok. Get it out of your heads that the foresight is where the bullet lands. Your weapon is not a one dimensional object -- it has length. A twisting of the weapon in relation to the eye will yield an incorrect sight picture. This is equally true for optics as well as iron sights, though the effect is less awkward to correct with the former. This is probably the single most important thing to correct. Irl, this needs to be watched like a hawk, corrected for after every round and checked before every shot. It takes time to acquire the correct sight picture every time you shoulder the weapon and aim, even just a brief moment. In automatic, weapons are not usually as uncontrollable and wildly jumping as games usually make them out to be, but THIS is the problem. This is why accuracy is much worse in automatic or rapid fire more than any other reason. Keeping a sight picture and maintaining your correct sight alignment is key -- a single mm off and the round can land multiple feet to either side. Effects on the game: 1) If you move the weapon to the right or left, you will typically lead with the barrel, then need to bring the rear aperture back into alignment and visa versa. Same for Up and down. The shouldering of a weapon will very rarely instantly yield the correct sight alignment, and it will take a very quick moment to correct, and will do so automatically. Firing then becomes a case of controlled shots, with time in between to ensure correct alignment. Otherwise, shots will be slightly off from the POA, in any axis. This is NOT the same as "random deviation", because the weapon still shoots where you tell it to, but you can see that where you are telling it to fire is not correct. It is also more consistent than weapon sway, because your arms and head are locked into the weapon tight -- it is more of a random "constant" than random "variable", only changing from shot to shot or from aiming to aiming. 2) Another reason that this is not the same as random deviation is because you can quickly check sight alignment and adjust the POA accordingly, especially when at mid/close range and getting shots off as quickly as possible. Look at the above pictures -- none would interfere with a close range hit, and at medium range they can be judged whether to be "close enough", adjusted for quickly, or deemed "too far off" and waited for to be corrected. Before you rip me apart: 1) "bla bla gameplay > realism har har"... I'm not talking about realism, I'm talking about good gameplay. Rifles are too accurate, and unless you want Arma or BF2 style systems, which are crap, this is simply another way of doing it. This is just a system that rewards skill; just a suggestion: take it as you will. 2) "its too complicated" / "squad is more casual than this milsim-y system" -- these effects are incredibly, if not imperceptibly, minor. In almost ALL cases I have mentioned above, simply taking your time before and between shots will automatically solve all accuracy concerns as your player model is self correcting, as you would be in real life. The above system would stop repeated rounds fired, with no breaks, going exactly on target with no spread. That is all it does -- it just does it without any infringement of player input/skill or weapons that have laughable spread for no apparent reason. 3) "Too difficult to code" / "too many variables" -- ok, forget 9/10 of the above, all you really need is (the) d. (Sight alignment and the sight picture must be correct). That alone would create something very equivalent to an authentic and balanced behaviour of rifles. It leaves room for skill and patience with marksmanship, while penalising trigger spammers or quickscopers or people that think that they can effectively 1 shot an enemy instantly by popping in and out of cover. I understand this will probably never be taken seriously, but I needed to point out that it is possible to do right. Especially because we all know the rifles are too accurate, yet the most common defence of them is "HAH, what, you want PR-style cone spread then?!? HA!" and it was really getting on my tits. Sorry for the essay; cheers if you bothered to read. I hope some of you are at least nerdy enough to find it interesting, if not feasible.
What if the mortars had similar overheat system like HMG's. But in the same time, the more you shoot/heat the barrel, the more inaccuracy you get. Also if you continue to shoot with hot barrel, there would be a slight change that the round would explode on the barrel and kill you (risk rises after each shot with heated barrel). When destroyed you have to dig out the remains and build a new one. I think this would heavily reduce mortar spamming when you have to wait for the barrel get cooler. Also it will add a risk factor for your actions if misused.
LaughingJack posted a topic in ArchiveHi All, Having Troubles with dynamic lighting: Before peeps suggest or link to tutes or docs - i have watched and read extensively (like, most of last weekend) as much as i could find related to this. One thing i did discover form my trawling is that UE's Dynamic Lighting is pretty rough and not very accurate (read: Crappy) I also bcame quite confused after being informed that Squad's lighting is fully dynamic, yet most (non-Squad)"fixes" advise adding in Static lighting elements as well as other Lighting "Helpers" - turning "Easy" Dynamic Lighting into a brain-melt. extra info for the above link: my buildings using Corrugated-Iron-over-Frame for roofs and walls have a 5mm gap between the Frame and the Iron. i have also asked in the Gen Disc thread about the possibility of the VXGI thing happening - looks lightyears ahead of UE's homebrand lighting. one last thing: is it possible for the Dev(s) to post about their default setup and settings? i have tried to copy the Jensens lighting but i must be missing something still. Cheers! .LJ
Arduras posted a topic in General DiscussionSo inevitable playing Militia and Insurgents they'll be strong (having scopes) but the guns have less recoil and are far more accurate, in addition to that the CROW decimates infantry and vehicles (including the BTR) without any problems from hidden positions. M249s that are laser guns while prone and having objectively the best gun in the game for every other member of your squad. In game there is a lot of bitching from Militias getting pushed to main pretty much every other map they play on (at least on pubs) What can be done to close the gap a bit? The militia can't get within 3 grids of the CROW without dying, the infantry have the best weapons and push even further. Right now, the militia don't have the capacity to deal with a well played US team.Militia can play well (even following the shitty meta right now that is to rush the enemy's second cap) and still get utterly destroyed. Once bipods are in I think it might even out a bit, even if it's only non-US factions that need them.
Not in this game, at least. I'm a former Marine (pog) and a firearm lover. I'm proud of my marksmanship. This is why I'm sad to see bad iron sights in a game about realism. What do I mean? I'll show you. Here are two rounds I fired: the first from 1 meter and the second from 20 meters. I have a tight shot group, right? The problem is that I aimed exactly dead center, yet I could only hit the red ring. That is a failing of the iron sights. *THIS* is what should happen when you aim correctly at a target. But! I propose a solution. Two solutions, in fact. #1 Simply correct it so the round travels to where it should -- where the player aims their sights. (But what about bulletdrop for long distance shots?) I'm glad you asked. #2 Make it so we can *adjust* our sights, like in real life. At the beginning of a match, players can do a quick tweaking to make sure their sights are accurate at 10-20 meters (where most fighting takes place) and simply adjust them as needed for those long range engagements. Solution 1 is probably easiest and most player-friendly, but solution 2 is more awesome in my opinion. Considering much of us use the iron sights, I beg you devs, fix the sights! Thanks for reading. *edited to please the marksmanship snobs. just give us weapons that fire where they are aimed*
Thread merged: http://forums.joinsquad.com/topic/158-enhancing-infantry-gameplay/ - Replies included. I'm making this thread for the discussion of anything to do with small arms accuracy in general and what pertinent systems could be implemented to make it more authentic. I've played Project Reality since 0.7, and thoroughly enjoyed it up to 1.0. A lot of the changes brought about by 1.0 put myself and a lot of other regular players off the game, in my case one of the main concerns being the changes to deviation. From what I understand, deviation was the emulation of the effects things such as fatigue, stance and suppression have on accuracy. In 1.0 deviation was a lot more forgiving, favouring personal skill over squad-level tactics and also leading to much shorter firefights. An additional consequence was upsetting the balance between weapons. First of all, a straight up imitation of the deviation system is out of the question - With UE4 I imagine it wouldn't even be necessary. My suggestion would be to get it closer to ArmA than PR in this respect - Your bullets go where the gun is pointing, but where the gun's pointing is influenced by your stance, how fast and for how long you've been running or staying still, your injuries and whether you're being suppressed. The problems that ArmA, and as another example, Red Orchestra 2 have in this respect is the fact that the sights will always stay aligned, allowing you to score a hit so long as your front sight's on the target when you fire. It is important that this is not the case when, say, an explosion happens next to you, or you change stance* or anything else that could influence the angle the gun is at relative to your view. The recovery in any case should be somewhat quick, but still influenced by what you were doing before you took aim; If we were to compare it to PR's deviation, somewhere in the middle ground between .98 and 1.0 *One of Battlefield's, and by extension, PR's main flaws was the fact that changing between crouching and standing had no effect on deviation, allowing players to pop up, instantaneously get an accurate shot off and return to crouch before the enemy has a chance to return fire This one may be controversial - Pulling the trigger could have some effect on where your weapon's pointing, a miniscule effect - Maybe when in semi-auto, if you were to hold the fire button down for a split-second rather than just tap it, this would be negated to a degree. The point of these suggestions is placing the emphasis back on good positioning, tactics and patience and bringing the longevity back to firefights.
Other than weapon sway all guns in real life has a degree of inherent inaccuracy, some a lot more than others. Even if you clamp the gun down solid on some kind of vise it's never 100% accurate due to factors like ballistics, environment, receiver flex, barrel harmonics, cycling mechanism etc. Will this be represented in the game or will I be able to snipe someone from across the map with my AK47 as long as I have my sights/scope adjusted to that range and held it square on the target?
May I suggest having a small fixed aiming deadzone, about the same size or slightly smaller than Insurgency's. And on aiming downsight, the weapon would be randomly lined anywhere within the deadzone. This is to prolong target acquisition, especially for high powered scopes, since the game wont have bullet deviation, and sway may not be powerful enough to hinder fast acquisition.